Bjorn Martinoff with Angela Chen on Leadership Exponential Power
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BJORN MARTINOFF: OK.
Great, fantastic.
We're here on the call
today with Angela Chen.
Angela Chen is the global brand
Vice President at GSK Denture.
And I'm very honored to be here
on the call with her today.
She's in London as we speak,
while I'm talking from Manila,
Philippines.
It's a very different time zone.
It's 4:00 PM here.
It's about 8 o'clock in London.
Angela and I have worked
together over the years,
and I'm very impressed
with her as a leader.
And today I've asked Angela what
she would want to talk about.
And in my book, Develop Exponential
Power, which was just endorsed
by Marshall Goldsmith,
she would like
to talk about the
power of authenticity.
So welcome to this call, Angela.
I'm excited to have you.
ANGELA CHEN: Thank
you very much, Bjorn.
I feel very, very
honored to be asked
for-- to giving this
opportunity to me.
So I truly appreciate that.
BJORN MARTINOFF: Yeah.
Same here.
Same here.
It's been a few
months since we spoke,
and I'm excited just to hear your
voice and see how you're doing
and how your family is.
It's always been fun working
with you and very exciting.
ANGELA CHEN: Yeah, absolutely.
I mean first time we spoke on
that was 2005 back in Japan.
BJORN MARTINOFF: Yeah.
ANGELA CHEN: That's a long time ago.
But yet, other days it feels
like it was just yesterday.
BJORN MARTINOFF: That's true.
ANGELA CHEN: And it does feel
really good to hear your voice.
BJORN MARTINOFF: Yeah.
That was at Aoba Castle, right,
just about an hour from Tokyo.
ANGELA CHEN: It was.
It was.
BJORN MARTINOFF: I remember we
were sitting out on the lawn
and talking in teams.
Fantastic, fantastic.
ANGELA CHEN: Yeah, absolutely.
And such a very [INAUDIBLE] moment
for me, day for me, that event.
Because I actually decided
to have a child, and now
I have a two-year-old boy.
So it was absolutely a
critical milestone of my life,
rather than just a
professional event.
So it's astonishing as
how things go, really.
BJORN MARTINOFF: It really is.
Before I had children, I
had no idea how important
that would be to my life,
and to me, personally.
ANGELA CHEN: Yeah.
It's true.
Very true.
BJORN MARTINOFF:
And I would probably
guess it's that way for most people.
ANGELA CHEN: Yeah.
I would say that thought nearly
everybody who has a child, I guess,
I would assume.
BJORN MARTINOFF: It's also
a very humbling experience.
You're working with professionals
day in, day out, the very high
level conversations,
and then all of a sudden
there's this little
human being and all
we talk is oo-oo
and ah-ah and ga-ga.
It's just mind blowing and it's so
heartwarming to see them grow up
and just smile.
Just to smile at you.
ANGELA CHEN: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
BJORN MARTINOFF: What
a wonderful experience.
Very cool.
Very cool.
So what inspired you to talk
about authenticity, Angela?
ANGELA CHEN: Well, actually really,
I think as you got to know me
over the course of
the last eight years,
I think authenticity's
truly the backbone, if not
the principle of my
value as an individual.
I do see the importance
of, call it being real,
because I think in the world
where-- I don't know whether it's
bad to say that people
is perhaps getting more
afraid of saying what's
on really their mind.
But there are other
mediums allow them to say,
i.e. the social mediums, other
sort of faceless, so to speak,
[INAUDIBLE] for everyone to express
their point of view in general.
However, I think authenticity
remains a precious quality that you
could acquire as an
individual in a real life,
rather than just in a cyber
life, if that makes any sense.
BJORN MARTINOFF: Yeah, it's so true.
ANGELA CHEN: And for me,
that's a foundation on anything
you build upon, obviously
where there's trust.
Without that, I think this world
will be just an empty, fake, made
up concrete, if that
makes any sense.
Because I think
authenticity brings you
real realness and the
real-- sort of the blood
and the heart for human beings.
I think I see that and it
certainly worked for me
in the last 21 years of my career.
And how I-- sort of being
myself, if you like.
So always people come around to ask
me so, I need to get some career
advice to how you have progressed.
And funny enough, when you actually
really think about it, one very
important quality or one important
fact throughout, whether you're
21 years old just starting your
job, or whether you're a 50-year-old
in the hype of, even sort of
in the top of your career,
or when you're 60, about to retire.
One important common thread
for me is so critical
is about being yourself.
Because the job might change,
the challenge might change.
The tasks that you work
on might be different.
The people you work with
is going to be drastically
different in this global
organization, or any global world,
if you like.
BJORN MARTINOFF: So true.
ANGELA CHEN: But what
can't change is yourself.
You can't be possibly
trying to re-shape
and then making things up as you
go along, because eventually you'll
be mad because you can't reprimand
yourself No one else can either.
So to me, it's a
fundamental stone, of bone,
of everything to be built upon.
BJORN MARTINOFF: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Some people try it, nonetheless.
They're one way in work, and
then another way with this type
of friend, and another way
with that kind of friends.
And then they're one other
way, again, with the family.
And then when you
have a birthday party
and everybody comes
to the same party,
they don't know anymore
who they are and get
completely confused like that.
ANGELA CHEN: Yeah.
I mean maybe some
people can do that.
I mean that perhaps there's
nothing wrong with them,
because if they can
naturally do that,
and that's the way,
how they unconsciously
or even without having to
think, to behave like that,
then maybe that's OK.
But I certainly can't do that,
because I believe human nature only
have certain amount of energy,
brain power in your entire body.
And when you're occupied in
trying to be something else,
then you've actually lost the focus
in doing what's really important.
And hence, almost-- sort
of politically incorrect--
but it's almost lazy to
try not to be myself.
BJORN MARTINOFF: In a
way it's also hiding,
when we hide ourselves from others.
Maybe we don't want to be
perceived a certain way,
or we do want to be perceived
a certain other way.
Or we don't want to
make any mistakes.
But in the end, I think people
can tell when we're not real,
when we're being more plastic,
or when we're hiding something.
From your career, and you've
grown very far up and in very
different, very
powerful organizations,
what difference does it
make as you go up the ladder
and become a leader?
What difference does authenticity
make there on a team?
ANGELA CHEN: I think, as I was
saying, that being yourself
is important, no matter
what stage your career is.
But I think authenticity perhaps
come in different weight in terms
of the impact, as
what has influence,
can reach different people.
When you go up in the ladder from
a sort of corporate point of view,
as a natural tendency
of the hierarchy,
you tend to have less interaction
with people because that's
how the world operates in a
corporate world [INAUDIBLE].
And hence, I think you already
become distant as an individual
to the majority of the population.
And when our moment of touch point
comes, whether it's a meeting,
whether it's a greeting
in the hallway,
or whether it's a big
event, you stand on a stage.
Be coming in those sort of events
or a moment as truly being yourself,
and to embrace who you are, and then
share with the group who you are
has become magnified.
Because given the choice,
given the moment you actually
get exposed to the team, so
to speak, is actually less.
So the [INAUDIBLE] about
those moments or day's events,
then that gets magnified so large.
And that if you then do not
present yourself authentically,
it equally only gets magnified,
if that makes any sense,
because their spotlight is on you.
And people look at you not just
as a leader of the organization,
more so as the individual human
being, how they can relate to.
And also, the relatability
coming from how truly you
are being real to the [INAUDIBLE],
being real to yourself.
And the impact can be then made
very correlated, if you like.
As you said, other people can
tell whether you're being plastic
and just reading off the
script, or whether you're
actually speaking
things from the heart.
Every human being, whichever country
they come from, whatever degree
they had, whatever road
they're in, they can tell.
Because we're all humans.
And this is something
just-- you come with it.
You can detect it.
And I think, actually
talking about that, we
were talking about Trojan early on.
I think [INAUDIBLE]
is probably the best
example we can learn
being very real.
BJORN MARTINOFF: Yes.
ANGELA CHEN: They were authentic.
They didn't have to
hide any feelings.
They probably sometimes
can be very quiet,
but they definitely had no
afraid of where the boundary is.
They completely brought
themselves, and that's
truly inspiring as you watch them.
And they have so much energy
because they don't have to worry
about what people
might think about them.
They just truly express themselves,
enjoy themselves to the full,
in the life that they have,
in the world they have.
And I think that's
probably the ultimate dream
of being authentic and being real.
BJORN MARTINOFF: I agree.
And they have no worry about oh,
I should have said it this way,
or I should have said it that way.
Just life moves forward.
ANGELA CHEN: Yeah, absolutely.
No, they just sort of see the
world as their way to see it,
and they expressed
the way they saw it.
And you say rather than
casting [INAUDIBLE] down to say
is this the right way to say or is
this the right thing I should say.
And when you do that, you lose the
focus of what's really required
then-- required for the
business, for example.
As well as what's really those
sort of laser focus of the issue
or the challenge, because
you're preoccupied
about what other people might think.
And I would truly
present what you think.
And sometimes you might not have
the right answer when you're dealing
with questions or real
business challenges.
But it's fine.
I think people would accept that,
because not everyone has an answer.
Not everyone has the
right answer, and that's
where the team comes to play.
Because I think often people relate
to you if you get yourself exposed,
that means you're
vulnerable, but that
means you're not a very good leader.
At least I believe that
majority of people I have led
will not take as a weakness.
More so they would
take as a strength
because only the truly
confident individual
would admit their weakness.
And then it's more
about working on that,
rather than trying to hide it,
as you were saying earlier.
BJORN MARTINOFF: Yeah, that's true.
And people are going
to be more open when
their leader is self
expressed and authentic.
And they may even come forth
with more ideas, something
that they may have
otherwise never expressed.
ANGELA CHEN: Yeah, exactly.
I think, as I was
saying, authentic's
the foundation of everything.
I So your book talk about a chapter
of growth, talk about the trust,
talk about the empathy.
I think once you open your
heart, your mind will open.
That everything else would then
open doors, and I think to me,
authenticity's a key to many doors.
BJORN MARTINOFF:
Yes, that's so true.
It'll open many doors.
Even the door to the hearts.
ANGELA CHEN: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
In my world, I see
that's the only key.
[INAUDIBLE] there is
different sets of keys
in terms of openness
of multiple doors.
Because I think when-- you might get
away with once or twice being not
so authentic, but you won't
get away with it a third time.
And then the doors will be shut
forever, because you've then
broken the foundation of the trust.
BJORN MARTINOFF: Exactly.
Exactly.
People don't trust anymore.
And I think it's been said that the
myth of communication is-- well,
the problem with communication is
the myth that it's taking place.
So many times people are
talking, their lips are moving
and sounds are coming out,
but nothing's being said,
much less is being heard.
And I think the problem with that
is usually authenticity is missing.
Once we start speaking
with authenticity,
people truly start
opening their ears.
They start being present.
They try to tune into us, and
really be there with empathy.
Like you said, it's the
door to trust and empathy
and to so many other things that can
make a real difference, especially
when we have to, as
leaders, inspire others.
If we don't just treat them as parts
of a machine, but as human beings,
we can then fully unleash
their real potential.
ANGELA CHEN: Um-hmm, absolutely.
Absolutely.
It has sort of a-- Bjorn, I
think it's going to be easy-- no.
Sometimes maybe certain
individuals it comes naturally
because their style to like--
But it does take a lot of courage
and effort to be truly authentic,
because as we were saying,
we live in the world of corporation.
And naturally, as a
human being, you're
probably worried about what people
might think of what you say,
what people might
react in what you do.
So it does take quite a great
amount of courage and effort
to be consistent authentic, even in
situation where you're completely
being seen unpopular by
acting the truth, if you like.
Where people, probably,
about the table
would be nodding vividly
and viciously, if you like.
However, they will be
too scared to bring up.
So authentic is only truly
just be your own self,
say, but also it's genuinely
for majority of the business,
say, where not everybody
necessarily has the courage,
has that courage to
speak for the truth.
Or do they know where the truth
is, if that makes any sense.
Once authenticity can actually
take many people forward,
rather than just one individual.
BJORN MARTINOFF: That's so true.
And I think you brought
up a very important point.
And that is courage.
That it takes often courage to be
authentic, especially when we're
not used to being
authentic in the beginning.
It could take a lot of courage.
It's sort of a muscle
that we need to build.
But when it's there--
ANGELA CHEN: Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
BJORN MARTINOFF: And
when it's there, however,
it doesn't just work
in authenticity,
it works in many areas.
Once we have courage in one
area, it's like a balloon,
it increases in size.
And then we may also have
courage in other areas
that will then turn out
to be more positive.
ANGELA CHEN: Yeah.
It is.
It's really true.
And also I think,
[INAUDIBLE] another sort
of chapter for the book.
So talk about
authenticity, but I also
talk about being
yourself more with skill.
I think this is
something you discover
as you grow older, like me.
I think also, authentic is
different from being blunt.
And different from
hurting people's feelings.
Saying something real, and then
say it in a more constructive way,
rather than destructive way.
It would require some
skill and thoughtfulness,
otherwise it can come
across rather blunt
and potentially can
hurt people's feelings.
BJORN MARTINOFF: That's true.
ANGELA CHEN: So I think the skill
element is also quite important.
As you were asking me,
as you progress over
the years on the corporate
ladder and what's important.
One is about the magnify
impact as you go up.
But there's also the
skill requirement,
because the people then you
start to manage, you're leading,
you're influencing is also
different, if that makes any sense.
[INAUDIBLE] the skill element
comes in play quite intricately.
BJORN MARTINOFF: It does.
It does.
You brought up another
important point.
It's how we are being authentic.
Are we being authentic in a way
that we're complaining or pointing
fingers or putting someone down?
Or are we being authentic in a way
that we talk about how it could be
more powerful, how you could be
better, and how we could improve.
The complaining I call like
we're stuck in the past,
so I call it past-based
language-- that it's
language based on the past.
On the other where
we're more constructive,
I like to call that
future-based language.
So where we talk about how
to be more powerful, more
successful, more
effective in the future.
Everybody likes to hear
how they could be more
successful in life, in
their career or at work.
So it makes quite a
difference which one we use.
Are we talking about the past?
Are we talking about future?
People tend to be much more open
when we talk about the future.
ANGELA CHEN: Yeah.
You refrain things, if you
like, because often when I--
the other thing that worked for
me, it's not the [INAUDIBLE],
than just being pragmatic.
Because often I think-- I guess
it's sort of being pragmatic or not,
being too cautious about
yourself, if that makes any sense.
Because I think you can't
change the past, but you can--
you learn from the past and don't
repeat a same mistake, or actually
making some new
mistakes, if you like.
At least you actually learn
from the new things. [INAUDIBLE]
using future language is actually
very important to refrain the mind,
to focus on the
influence we can make,
rather than dwelling over the past.
And all of this, I think also
a leader or an individual,
to be honest, I would
think, do not take yourself
seriously, but take
the subject, i.e.
the business seriously
is also equally important
to keep the business
agenda going, as well as
the authenticity
impact to be maximized.
BJORN MARTINOFF: It's so true.
The business impact you brought up,
can you share maybe some examples,
one or two examples
maybe, or anything else
you want to say about
how authenticity
had made an impact maybe on one of
your teams, or one in a project,
or in your leadership.
Any examples, because people
always like to hear examples.
ANGELA CHEN: Yeah.
Absolutely.
I'm just thinking now.
I'm not 100% sure whether
they're a good example.
So let me share one individual
team member example.
So [INAUDIBLE] that was my time
in [? Ava ?] about a year ago.
I had a marketing
director working for me.
And she is an Irish lady
on the [? express rate ?]
plan with the company.
At the time I arrived, she
was on the potential risk
of not continuing her
contract, and potentially
might be leaving the organization.
But having just
arrived, [INAUDIBLE],
I quickly got some
facts around the table.
Also maybe some judgment based
on their initial observation
of her behavior/leadership
style [INAUDIBLE].
It come obvious to me that she has
a tremendous value to organization,
and despite there might
be cost challenges,
there is definitely
value in continuing her--
the path with [? Avon ?] through
that, the contract [? term. ?]
I think during those
conversations, I
had quite-- have
discussion with my boss.
But equally spending time
being very transparent.
Very authentic with the individual.
I hope she doesn't mind our calling
her name, Angelene, for example.
Angelene's her name.
And I'd been very, very truth with
her in terms of what I'm trying
to do, and there's certain things
might be out of my control,
but I'll do whatever it takes to
achieve objectives, which will be
a win-win situation, both for her,
as well as for the organization.
And that situation actually happened
twice-- actually three times.
So her contract extension
comes to three point injunction
where I have to face the
challenge of not extending
because whether it's internal
policy or whether one
individual's point of view.
Now, although I have to peddle
quite hard in front of my boss
and us doing the HR network,
in front of Angelene,
I also equally had shared with
her that the challenge I'm going
through, so not
pretending it's easy.
Nor I'm pretending I have
everything under control.
And I made it very
clear with her saying,
this is why I'm
fighting for this case,
because all the value I brought to
the business, et cetera, et cetera.
However, these are
the three elements
might be out of our control,
whether it's policy, whether it's
decision-makers find a
decision, whether it's
eventually the cost, for example.
And throughout, we
stayed very close.
And I will never forget
the day when I actually
got the last expenditure
which is breaking the policy.
Which is [INAUDIBLE] exception
to get that extension when
I had [INAUDIBLE] the letter to her.
She normally doesn't show
her emotion very easily.
It brought tears to her, and
it was a very touching moment.
And she truly appreciated
how much effort and how open
I was with her throughout the
process in terms of how I'm getting
and am I making process rather than
making one empty promises that yes,
I'm going to sort it, but
eventually turned around,
because she's been let down in past.
And then she appreciated
the truly transparency
and how the whole process
I went through with her.
So I'm not sure that's
a very good example.
I think that example came to my
mind how I stayed real to her
as an individual.
How I related to her family
situation from her needs.
And as well as, shared
with her my perception
of the business situation.
Does that make any sense, Bjorn?
BJORN MARTINOFF: Absolutely.
It makes a lot of sense.
And that probably had a lot
of impact on your relationship
afterwards, as well as the
results that she produced, no?
ANGELA CHEN: Oh, absolutely.
I think the [INAUDIBLE]
infinite if I were to say.
So I think I have built on an
unbreakable trust with her.
And I think that's going
to last forever and ever.
Even sort of on the personal level.
But definitely in a
professional level.
If I had carried on
working with Angelene,
and I think I can [INAUDIBLE]
through under [INAUDIBLE] and so
can she on me.
BJORN MARTINOFF: And there's
real benefit when we can connect
to other people, not just
as parts of the machine.
I'm a gear, you're a
gear in this machine,
but rather as human beings.
We're so much more
than parts of machines,
and there's so much more possible
when we are being human beings
rather than just some
parts of the machinery.
And so all of our
potential can be unleashed,
and we can bring all
of our creativity
to the game when that happens.
There's no holds barred, basically.
Would you agree with that?
ANGELA CHEN: Yeah, absolutely.
Totally.
I mean sometimes also,
one could underestimate
the impact of authenticity.
Again, it's all about real.
I mean we use this authenticity
as a word, but in plain English,
it's about being real,
being who you are.
And then [INAUDIBLE] who you are.
I remember the first day when I
started my job in [? Avon ?] four
years ago-- five
years ago now, almost.
I shared with my team-- that's
the first time I met them.
So almost my arriving,
so to speak, speech.
And I had no hesitation to share
with them actually I started
my career as a secretary, as an
assistant to a marketing manager.
And of course, then how
I progressed my career.
And later on, you can't
believe how numerous feedback
I got from the team and say
they were stunned by the fact
that I actually,
happily to share that.
Because first of all, they didn't
expect that level of openness.
And they were really
genuinely surprised,
but equally they were really
encouraged about how possible one
can make out of their career
no matter where you start.
And I was asking my team,
why are you surprised,
because that's who I was,
and then make who I am today.
I have no-- I don't feel
embarrassed about it.
Everybody has different
paths to their success.
Everybody has a
different starting point.
And they said oh, OK,
because some might think,
actually, how could you
share a rather humble start,
or rather low start because
you're already now a VP.
I said well that's the whole
point about you're actually
staring in a very different place.
It's not just people
appreciate authenticity.
But then taking that into a truly
inspirational possibility to life.
So someone who was
[INAUDIBLE] assistant.
And then thinking, actually, I could
do that, because if she did it,
I could do that too.
And it's truly happening.
And when I was there
for four years, we
would talk about career progression
and how we then promoted people
from very low grade jobs, i.e.
team assistant into marketing role.
And actually they flourished.
And more and more those examples
sort of build on each other.
And you're then making
the organization that
believed in possibilities
and believed in how
your, once courage
can take you very far.
So I think the ripple effect of
being real and being authentic
and being who you are, and then
sharing with the team who you are
is much more than
just single dimension.
Now they know you're a human being
with bones and body and a heart.
BJORN MARTINOFF: Feelings, yes.
ANGELA CHEN: But it's much
more because you would inspire
creativity, you would
inspire courage,
you would inspire ambition.
Because what I believe is leadership
is all about developing people,
and that's actually a
truly rewarding thing
to see how people then respond
to your authentic approach.
BJORN MARTINOFF: Yeah.
I could not have said it better.
Authenticity I think can
be totally inspiring others
and can bring out more in them.
Bring out more of their potential.
I think people who are authentic,
who are real, not plastic, people
who are real people, I think they
grow faster in their careers.
Because they're more
trusted and they
will speak what needs to
be said, especially even
to higher levels in
the organization.
And higher levels, we all know,
it becomes difficult to receive
real and authentic feedback
or information even,
because it's often hidden from them.
And so I feel that when we're
higher up in organization,
it's refreshing to hear someone
talk with authenticity, being real,
not holding back.
And so I feel that often these
people are growing faster
and they're being
promoted more often.
It's a wonderful tool.
ANGELA CHEN: It's a button hole--
I can't think of an analogy.
I often think of an analogy where
it's almost like a little match box
to lit up all the
other possibilities.
Or is a key to the door, is the
ultimate goal of them, if you like.
[INAUDIBLE] that [? after ?] either
creativity, either to courage,
or to the foundation of a solid
relation to last lifetime long.
Everything.
That's why I said in the beginning
it's the basic foundation
of everything, is just fine
with me as a human being.
BJORN MARTINOFF: Absolutely.
I'm honored to be here
on this call with you.
I'm totally grateful we are
having this conversation.
I want to thank you from the bottom
of my heart for taking this time.
You completely
re-inspire, inspire me,
and encourage me to move forward
with these conversations.
You should see the smile on
my face right now, Angela.
Thank you so much.
ANGELA CHEN: Thank you,
Bjorn. [INAUDIBLE].
I probably should have
articulated better.
But I think that's two
examples that came to my mind.
If you need anything
more drop me a note
if you want to have a
little follow-up call.
BJORN MARTINOFF: Sure.
Wonderful.
I thank you for sharing about
your very personal experience
about the power of authenticity
as described in my book.
And have a great day.