The Norway Option - Living outside the EU
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must-watch.eu :: reformy.cz :: the-publicist.co.uk
Hello, I'm Norman Tebbit
and I'd just like to introduce you
to this really most interesting film
about our European dilemma.
It's interesting
because it doesn't shout and it's not
obsessive
and it sets out
the possibilities for the United Kingdom
to withdraw from the European Union
in its ambition of a single European state.
What sort of relationship?
Well, of course, it would probably be a
relationship
very much like that which Norway
enjoys as a member of
the European Free Trade Area, closely
aligned
with our friends in Europe, pursuing many
common interests together
but not trying to govern each other's
countries.
It suggests
that, beyond all the shouting on both sides
there is a harmonious and sensible way
forward.
The Palace of Westminster, seat of our
British Parliament, which,
for forty years has been surrendering power to the European Union
and there was a reminder of that at the
funeral of Baroness Thatcher.
Like the assassination of President
Kennedy
or the death of Diana, Princess of Wales,
or the funeral of Sir Winston Churchill, this is clearly
a momentous occasion. This is an occasion when everybody will remember
where they were on this day. Beneath the
dome a St. Paul's,
former colleagues gathered to pay their
last respects.
A small number of the crowd protested,
but many others remembered her personal
legacy.
Half of these people weren't even born,
It's actually disgusting
but welcome to Britain 2013.
If there was a general election tomorrow, then we,
I'm speaking for myself personally,
I don't know who to vote for, because
I can't really see a politician that is standing up for us at the moment
for this country anyway.
The days are gone, the politicians of this country don't have any power to make any
decisions anyway, its all done from Europe, whatever they say it's all over written by Europe
they can't do anything, they're stuck.
Maggie was the last person to have any ability to change anything.
We're completely overwhelmed by Brussels now.
I think they should give us a vote on whether we can come out of Europe.
We need to get out of Europe, absolutely, I'm dead against it.
But they won't let us.
The frustrated voice of
the British people
but what if there was a seismic change
in British politics
allowing at least a vote on leaving the EU.
Might that be reported like this?
The government says
it has accepted the overwhelming popular
vote
to leave the European Union. In a
statement from Downing Street
the Prime Minister said he respected the
freely expressed will of the people.
In accordance with Article Fifty of the
Lisbon Treaty,
the UK government will tomorrow be
serving a notice
on the Presidents of the European
Commission and the EU Council of
Ministers in Brussels that the UK will
leave the EU
in two years time. Within that time scale
it's expected the country will seek
relationships with
other trading blocks particularly the
European Free Trade Association.
We have of course invented this bulletin
but it is
possible because of what ministers
decided when they met in Portugal
in December 2007.
The European Union was
formed many decades ago
and is comprised of many different
treaties.
The Treaty of Lisbon is perhaps the most
interesting because it provides
with an exit clause.
Welcome to the Jerónimos Monastery where ministers approved the treaty
and also signed their names on the
pavement.
With me is Richard North a leading light in the anti EU movement.
explaining the significance of Article Fifty.
For Eurosceptics the Lisbon
Treaty is the game-changer,
it changes everything. For the first
time,
embodied in the treaty, formally
recognised in the Treaty
is the right of the member states to leave
the European Union.
This is allmightily helpful for those of us that are
Eurosceptics isn't it, because we've
got a pathway perhaps.
Yes, you made a good point. It
doesn't presage
or dictate content, it simply sets out a
procedure for negotiations.
So in this hypothetical situation where we leave the
European Union without any thought
it would be absolute chaos wouldn't it surely? Yes, the whole of our International relations
are tied up with treaties, agreements and
fundamental joined
programmes and the idea that the
British could stand astride the
White Cliffs of Dover
and see off the foreigners and tell them that: "we are leaving"
and the foreigners would meekly
turn around and say: "OK" and come running to us with agreements for trade
and other
ideas would be nice to see. Everything
else that goes with forty years of
integration that has to be worked out to the
finest detail.
So the Lisbon Treaty
signals a clear way out
and our future bulletins may not be so
improbable.
In talks over the country's future
membership of the European Union
the Prime Minister has told parliament
the government will fight for what he
calls
the best deal for Britain. David Cameron
was speaking at Prime Minister's
Questions following a new poll on the
continued membership of the EU.
The poll indicates that slightly over 50
percent of the British people would be
likely to vote
'no' in any future referendum while around
30 percent would vote in favour
with the rest saying they don't know. The
poll
is in line with other recent surveys.
Our recent research is showing that when asked if respondents would
prefer to stay in the EU or leave the EU, it falls out as roughly 50 percent
would prefer to leave the EU and 30 percent would want to stay in the EU.
The rest are not sure what their opinion is.
The gap between' yes' and 'no' voters narrows in the latest result,
if the Prime Minister were able to
negotiate a more favourable deal for
Britain
or secure repatriation of powers. From our research in
recent weeks the majority which is around 58 percent have said that they want
to see a referendum, the remaining around 20 to 30 percent
have said, they don't. But the fact is, whenever there is an issue of
whether there should be a referendum the
majority of people will say they want to
see a referendum and have a choice in what the
outcome is, no matter what
the actual subject is about.
So if there is an exit route, and most people want it what's happening about a referendum
a question the Bruges Group was asking
at this event
in Manchester timed to coincide with the
Conservative Party Conference
in the same city. The Bruges group is a
think tank
we were founded after a speech by Margaret
Thatcher, the then Prime Minister,
she wanted a situation, where there wasn't
centralisation
in Europe there was a collection of
independent free-trading
democratic nation states.That's what she
wanted and that's what
we're trying to deliver.
As Nigel Farage arrived for the meeting he was beseiged by the media, pausing to comment on what he saw
as Conservative embarrassment about this
meeting being held
near their conference.
Welcome to the Bruges Group 2013.
Later there was a significant moment at the
meeting, when the UKIP leader Mr. Farage
acknowledged the potential of Article Fifty for
an orderly exit from the EU.
Once we have had a referendum on our future in European Union,
how do the panel see is the best way out of the EU.
Is, in fact,Article 50 an acceptable route. I have to say I found the fact Lisbon was pushed through without a referendum
makes it very difficult to accept, but
there it is law so we have to enter into
our divorce from the European Union according to
the provisions and principles of Article Fifty,
but if we see any shoddy dealing
and if we see Article Fifty being used
as it means of extracting
more from us than we should be giving, then we'll have to throw the whole thing in the bin.
So we need to enter into this
divorce with the spirit
of doing it legally and doing it amicably but the European Union and Brussels itself
will need to play fair with the bargain too.
There is a pathway out of the European Union
and that's to invoke the provisions of
Article Fifty which is in the Treaty
on European Union and that gives a procedure by which a country can say it wants
withdraw from the EU and
then of course negotiations begin and an
agreement can be reached.
There are aspects of the treaties which
call for the European Union to have
free trade relationships with its
neighbours which may well involve the UK
joining the European Free Trade
Association and thus remaining in the
European Economic Area
which guarantees full access to the
single market
as well. So that's the path that we
should follow.
And all this brings us back here to
Westminster the home of the UK
Parliament
and to the vexed question of whether there
should be a referendum on Britain's
continued membership
of the European Union. Those opposing
further EU integration say Britain could
rejoin
EFTA, the European Free Trade
Association
comprising of Norway, Iceland,
Lichtenstein and Switzerland which
together
with the EU member states forms the EEA
the European Economic Area or as it is
better known the single market.
Britain could still remain a member of
the single market which is the European
Economic Area or EEA
which allows for free movement of goods,
services, capital and
people and that means as far as
business is concerned businesses will trade
as they have done before, but the difference
will be that regulations will no longer
apply to 100 percent of
the UK but only if you want to the 9 percent
which are involved with export
so again this'll make business life a lot
easier and also to help create jobs.
Very recently our Prime Minister David
Cameron said that
if we left the European Union we would be
like Norway
ruled by fax from the European Union. Is that correct? No, I wouldn't say that's correct at all, actually Norway do very well by having a lot of influence in the EU As a very prosperous country, people listen to their opinions in the EU. They've developed something called' policy shaping' where they're consulted in the process of making new regulations or any regulations in the EU and Norway has 3.5 percent unemployment so I would say they're doing the right thing. So when we leave the European Union what's reality, what will happen. Operationally, if you have a look at what will change is that the amount of regulations will fall dramatically. At the moment Britain gets about a thousand new regulations a year and that will drop to about 350 a year, so that's about a seventy percent cut, sixty to seventy percent, which for business is like a tax cut, because regulations are like a tax form. And you've probably noticed you don't hear much about Norway in the news, because well they're doing fine. The CBI has produced a report examining ways in which two countries Switzerland and Norway have formed relationships with the EU without being members of the community. Organisations such as the CBI are saying our position will be much weaker outside the EU because we simply won't have the clout that we have at the moment. The CBI must be looking at other numbers that the rest of the public are looking at,because Britain has, at the moment, about a forty billion trade deficit with the EU, so it hasn't actually helped the exporters, being part of the EU, so by removing the EU part of the agreement with the European countries that regulatory burden, that loss of competitiveness, that taking management time away from managing the business will be removed and Britain will be a much more flexible, much more adaptable and much more competitive and will be able to get a trade balance which could mean about a million extra jobs. The small business community, how will they benefit precisely when we leave the European Union. In a number of ways One of them is the removal of duplication, cause what often happens is that regulations that are made in the EU are actually duplications of existing laws here so they actually need to do double. They also need to hire people to carry all these the regulations that are needed. Now large companies they can use their competitive advantage, because they can hire people to do this, which means they squeeze a small business, which means they can actually eliminate competition, which means the consumer is actually at the mercy of just a few companies supplying these services. It sounds as if our news bulletins are the future may be gathering pace. David Cameron this afternoon confirmed his position on the UK's membership of the EU. Speaking at the annual conference of the Federation of Small Businesses the Prime Minister confirmed it wouldn't be in the interests of business to leave the EU, adding that fifty percent of our exports go to Europe. Addressing the lively audience of business owners, David Cameron said quote: "because we have a seat at the table in the single market we help write the rules of the market." The Prime Minister's remarks were met with criticism amongst the delegates many of whom had voted at their conference twelve years ago to demand that the Federation call for a withdrawal from the European Union. Norway voted twice to stay outside the European Union. How's that turned out. Richard North and I went to Oslo to find out. Two beers please. Sure Our Prime Minister said that if we left the European Union we could end up like Norway an absolute disaster Yeah, I wish you that. I wish every country in the world to have that bad as we have here in Norway Good start. Time for a look around. Norway is a booming country. Its five million inhabitants enjoy a great standard of living, which is why the group which led the campaign for independence feels vindicated. Norway has done very well outside the EU, no question about it. We were told back in '94 when we had the referendum on the EU membership that one hundred thousand jobs would be lost, businesses would go bankrupt, today we are a prospering country. We have one of the lowest unemployment rates in Europe, so we've done quite well outside. We're a small country, yes, in terms of population, I wouldn't say we are on the edges of Europe, maybe geographically, but we trade with Europe a lot, we still are a part of the Council of Europe, we play a huge role in the UN for instance, so we have influence, just not within the EU. I think it's going to be difficult I really do but it's not impossible of course but because Britain has been a member since 1973, there are so many links ties, agreements what have you. So it will be difficult but not impossible I don't think so, it's all. I rather hope you do it. Norway's fishing industry is flourishing, It's fleets are allowed to catch 40 times more cod in its territorial waters than British boats. Farming too is thriving. Odd-Einar Hjortnes represents 5,000 small farmers in his area of Norway, as well as running an organic milk and beef farm himself. We have a couple of old Norwegian breeds, they will go to a specific market for hotels and restaurants. My family's been running this farm for about 100 years my great-grandfather bought this farm from the local man who had it. Right now I do dairy production, organic milk from 22 cows. Well I think most Norwegians they think that it's far enough to go to Oslo to talk to the politicians and they don't want to go all the way to Brussels to try to talk the politicians into common sense so the main thing about the European Union question was about people deciding on their own future and to have this local politicians still being the ones who are deciding. What do you think would have happened to this farm had the vote gone in another way? Well it certainly wouldn't have been any dairy cows here anymore because the prices has to keep in pace with all the costs that are in this society around us and the Norwegian price level is quite high and if we had the same price development in in dairy and meat that the European Union has had since '94 I would be out of business quite quick. Well I think it's a general opinion in Norway that Norwegian agriculture would have had big trouble if we had joined European Union in 1994 and we are a country quite far north doing much of the agricultute north of the Arctic Circle and having Brussels governing all this I think most people realise that would have to be very difficult. The people of Norway don't want to be a part of the European Union and right now you see that the troubles that the European Union are going through is so deep and so different than what we have in Norway you wouldn't get it through in Norway. Well I think many of the rules they are not they are not made in Europe at all many of the International rules are made up in quite different bodies around the world and they are global not Europe centered, so I think the future is not looking only on Europe you have to look all over the world and to make better world for all of us. This is a key point all regulations in the EU don't originate from Brussels some are passed down from world bodies such as the Codex Alimentarius. Richard spoke with the Norwegian chairman of its fisheries committee. The mandate of Codex work is to ensure food safety and fair practices in trade. Codex works both on regional standards, but primarily on global standards. In a formal sense your a global government or have global governance in another sense? Yes we establish trade rules that would be to the benefit of consumers all over the world and would also be, as I see it, a benefit for trade operators, since the other objective is the fair practices in trade. When our Prime Minister Mr. Cameron says that when agreeing these standards we need to be at' the top table'. Codex is 'the top table', isn't it? Codex is' the top table' for International standards settings but I wouldn't say that the UK has, both in the European Union and in Codex always presented its views based on science, based on skills, based on historical evidence and based on a heavy seafood sector, so the UK will be heard both in the European Union and in Codex when it comes to seafood questions. What's the significance of what we just heard Richard? The first point that emerges is that Norway is fully involved all the way through the decision process. The second thing that comes over, is that the EU is effectively just a middleman, that the EU's not creating standards it's part of the process and when it comes down the EU turns the standard if you like into European law and then the member states including Britain implement it. I wonder if such facts will be reported in our future news bulletins. Sources in Downing Street are indicating that a decision has been taken on the date for a referendum on Britain's continued membership of the European Union and that it will be announced later today. The Norwegian national broadcaster is NRK which keeps its finger on the national political pulse. I spoke with one of its leading commentators. The Norway situation is that the economy is healthy, there is low unemployment, no debt, national debt and we have a very very strong economy because of the oil resources in the North sea. Why do you think the people of Norway voted not to join the EU 20 or so years ago? The Norwegian people have voted no twice, two referendums we've had and the Norwegian people have said no twice. The explanations are twofold, one is traditionally there is a very strong conflict between the central areas of Norway the elite and the rural areas, which became very obvious when we debated the EU question and the the experience that decisions would move from Oslo and Norway to Brussels was a very strong argument why the Norwegians voted 'no', so they said we want to make our own decisions we don't want Brussels to make them. The other is a strong leftist movement in Norway who are very sceptical towards market liberalism and towards what's happening in the economic sector in the European Union. Norway manages very well outside the EU financially and economically and politically and in every way. Norway is a healthy country and you can't really say that it would have been better if we were on the inside. No politician can say that, what some politicians say is that we should have the influence we would have if we were sitting around the table in Brussels instead we're just receiving EU law and regulations by email every week from Brussels. Norway has influence and one of the main reasons for that is of course, that is an important energy exporter of oil and natural gas. Norway is a big player in that area. When you have control over resources like that you always have a say. One of the things that occurs to me is the political self-determination of this country and the maturity of their politics. These people have prospered, these people are doing well, they're happy, they're contented. It's very interesting to see this in action. If you go back to 1972 when you joined the European Union you were together with Norway and Switzerland and others in another trade and negotiating area and if you consider that again we have the UK, we have Norway, we have Switzerland and we could also join Iceland and have a kind of North Atlantic cooperation but that means that UK cannot think that they should be the boss of this system they must accept that they are a part of the system with equals and the free trade thinking of English agriculture, which historically has been quite strong, also has to be revised in such a system but that would just be wise and would give rise to a more prosperous and vibrant rural England. Norway's abundant wildlife and its rich culture and strong business ethos are valued by its people. And the security this brings is recognised at Oslo University where academics have studied the impact of remaining outside the European Union. We have particularly focused on institutional developments and also the constitutional and democratic. So kind of common denominator for all the work is really the concern about democracy and its preconditions and if you want the challenges in a changing world. It has generated a lot of security for business basically. You know the operation rules, we may not agree with all the them, but basically it renders as a high level of predictability to productive activity in general and also Norway has participated in a lot of the different schemes that the EU has, including for instance research schemes and so on and therefore it has not left us out, we are cooperating on par with other Europeans and we're not suffering from not being a formal member in that sense. For at least one government minister, also a board member of the Norwegian Centre Party, the argument about staying out was won long ago. I was 14 years old I think 13-14 and the referendum on the EU membership was coming up in 1994 and my main arguments against membership at that time was that it would be a deficit to the Norwegian democracy to move the decision-making from local governments, regional governments and from the Norwegian Parliament to Brussels and of course ahead of the referendum in '94 there was a big grassroots movement against membership and we succeeded. We were told up all the catastrophies that Norway would suffer if we did not join the EU, for instance we were told that, from the government which was pro membership, that we would lose fifty thousand jobs almost overnight, now obviously that has not happened. I think everyone would agree that the Norwegian economy and the Norwegian welfare state is much more solid and the private economy in Norway is stronger today than it was at that time. There's absolutely no one in the Norwegian debate that wants to join the EU and there's a vast majority in the Norwegian public that does not want EU membership and not only that but they want less integration with the EU. Well, the reason why we joined the EEA agreement was to be part of the internal market, which means that we can trade with the EU freely, there are some exceptions on processed fish but they're very very small and quite minor, I would say, but with the EEA agreement we have nearly free trade with the EU and it works very well. In terms of influence or decisions, well yes we are not at the table when the voting takes place but we are able to influence the directives at earlier stages. We have experts working in Brussels, we have dialogue, we take part in some of the committee meetings and hearings and we feel we have a very good dialogue with the EU and we are able to influence directives that are important for Norway. Now, at the end of the day when the voting takes place the situation is like this: Norway has the right to veto if a directive is not suitable for us if it is too controversial we can say no, while in the EU the countries are subject to majority vote, so I would say that we are better off. So where does this all leave us? Richard and I went on a cruise on Oslo Fjord to reflect on our visit. It's a fascinating relationship, isn't it. They don't want the EU, they do have this organisation called EFTA, the European Free Trade Association, this links them into the single market so they become part of the EEA, the European Economic Area and they're actively exploring areas of improvement, so they're ahead of the game, they're thinking ahead and looking to Britain to say come and join us. The meeting with their minister wasn't that powerful stuff. So different from the weasley words and the circumventions you get from British ministers you had somebody who was very very clear. We are at the beginning of an adventure not at the end of an era. One of the things I noticed is how very much government is not in your face here. Yes, you could sum it up: they govern themselves, we are governed. I think a lot of people have a curious view, that were we to leave the European Union, there would be battleships up and down the English Channel so to speak. That for some reason or another on both sides of the Channel we would be intent on cutting off our noses to spite our faces. The Norway option, membership of the European Free Trade Area, in friendship with our friends on the mainland, is one which is open to us and should be followed. I think there will come a moment when a decision has to be reached to stop all the arguing and talking to make a decision on whether we should remain as a member of this future European state or whether we should peaceably withdraw. I think that moment is not yet, I don't think that the debate is sufficiently well informed. In the UK senior political commentators have begun debating the significance of the Norway option and what that means to all of us. This is exactly the kind of thinking which we need to have more of. And you can see the Norway thing unbelievably well, it's much more democratic, it's a great country, enviable, of course there are certain differences with Norway. One is it's much smaller, a few million people and secondly they've got that amazing oil base, so their economy is not nearly as complex or as global as ours. It is worth making a point that you can't actually just pull out of Europe, you still need to have a relationship very complex trading relationship which would be regulated. The whole exit business is really interesting and how its handled, what are the new arrangements and one of the things which we'll all need to do actually ahead of the Yes/ No campaign is to work out the arguments. Peter Oborne was speaking at the meeting organised by the Bruges Group, at which Nigel Farage was challenged by the veteran Tory Euro sceptic MP Bill Cash, concerning the Tory marginal seats. That is something worth fighting for, that is the national interest, that is why I say to Nigel: lay off our marginal seats. Don't just try and go for a joint ticket, it won't work. But if you do it, you will then be allies and not our enemies. Thank you very much. But I have to say Bill, I'm sorry to say this, but listening to you this afternoon I've realised that you are a hopelessly out-of-date tribal politician, who has not recognised that British politics has fundamentally changed and to ask me to support a party led by Mr. Cameron in order that we can get back our national independence, I'm sorry you've got to do rather better than that. And finally into each life a little rain must fall. But we can all imagine a brighter future when the announcement many long for comes to pass The government says it has accepted the overwhelming popular vote to leave the European Union. The Prime Minister is expected to hold an unscheduled meeting with the Queen at Buckingham Palace at 2 o'clock, prior to addressing the House of Commons at 3.30. (Subtitles thanks to Margaret Parkinson, Glynis Oliver and Darren Sharman).
ruled by fax from the European Union. Is that correct? No, I wouldn't say that's correct at all, actually Norway do very well by having a lot of influence in the EU As a very prosperous country, people listen to their opinions in the EU. They've developed something called' policy shaping' where they're consulted in the process of making new regulations or any regulations in the EU and Norway has 3.5 percent unemployment so I would say they're doing the right thing. So when we leave the European Union what's reality, what will happen. Operationally, if you have a look at what will change is that the amount of regulations will fall dramatically. At the moment Britain gets about a thousand new regulations a year and that will drop to about 350 a year, so that's about a seventy percent cut, sixty to seventy percent, which for business is like a tax cut, because regulations are like a tax form. And you've probably noticed you don't hear much about Norway in the news, because well they're doing fine. The CBI has produced a report examining ways in which two countries Switzerland and Norway have formed relationships with the EU without being members of the community. Organisations such as the CBI are saying our position will be much weaker outside the EU because we simply won't have the clout that we have at the moment. The CBI must be looking at other numbers that the rest of the public are looking at,because Britain has, at the moment, about a forty billion trade deficit with the EU, so it hasn't actually helped the exporters, being part of the EU, so by removing the EU part of the agreement with the European countries that regulatory burden, that loss of competitiveness, that taking management time away from managing the business will be removed and Britain will be a much more flexible, much more adaptable and much more competitive and will be able to get a trade balance which could mean about a million extra jobs. The small business community, how will they benefit precisely when we leave the European Union. In a number of ways One of them is the removal of duplication, cause what often happens is that regulations that are made in the EU are actually duplications of existing laws here so they actually need to do double. They also need to hire people to carry all these the regulations that are needed. Now large companies they can use their competitive advantage, because they can hire people to do this, which means they squeeze a small business, which means they can actually eliminate competition, which means the consumer is actually at the mercy of just a few companies supplying these services. It sounds as if our news bulletins are the future may be gathering pace. David Cameron this afternoon confirmed his position on the UK's membership of the EU. Speaking at the annual conference of the Federation of Small Businesses the Prime Minister confirmed it wouldn't be in the interests of business to leave the EU, adding that fifty percent of our exports go to Europe. Addressing the lively audience of business owners, David Cameron said quote: "because we have a seat at the table in the single market we help write the rules of the market." The Prime Minister's remarks were met with criticism amongst the delegates many of whom had voted at their conference twelve years ago to demand that the Federation call for a withdrawal from the European Union. Norway voted twice to stay outside the European Union. How's that turned out. Richard North and I went to Oslo to find out. Two beers please. Sure Our Prime Minister said that if we left the European Union we could end up like Norway an absolute disaster Yeah, I wish you that. I wish every country in the world to have that bad as we have here in Norway Good start. Time for a look around. Norway is a booming country. Its five million inhabitants enjoy a great standard of living, which is why the group which led the campaign for independence feels vindicated. Norway has done very well outside the EU, no question about it. We were told back in '94 when we had the referendum on the EU membership that one hundred thousand jobs would be lost, businesses would go bankrupt, today we are a prospering country. We have one of the lowest unemployment rates in Europe, so we've done quite well outside. We're a small country, yes, in terms of population, I wouldn't say we are on the edges of Europe, maybe geographically, but we trade with Europe a lot, we still are a part of the Council of Europe, we play a huge role in the UN for instance, so we have influence, just not within the EU. I think it's going to be difficult I really do but it's not impossible of course but because Britain has been a member since 1973, there are so many links ties, agreements what have you. So it will be difficult but not impossible I don't think so, it's all. I rather hope you do it. Norway's fishing industry is flourishing, It's fleets are allowed to catch 40 times more cod in its territorial waters than British boats. Farming too is thriving. Odd-Einar Hjortnes represents 5,000 small farmers in his area of Norway, as well as running an organic milk and beef farm himself. We have a couple of old Norwegian breeds, they will go to a specific market for hotels and restaurants. My family's been running this farm for about 100 years my great-grandfather bought this farm from the local man who had it. Right now I do dairy production, organic milk from 22 cows. Well I think most Norwegians they think that it's far enough to go to Oslo to talk to the politicians and they don't want to go all the way to Brussels to try to talk the politicians into common sense so the main thing about the European Union question was about people deciding on their own future and to have this local politicians still being the ones who are deciding. What do you think would have happened to this farm had the vote gone in another way? Well it certainly wouldn't have been any dairy cows here anymore because the prices has to keep in pace with all the costs that are in this society around us and the Norwegian price level is quite high and if we had the same price development in in dairy and meat that the European Union has had since '94 I would be out of business quite quick. Well I think it's a general opinion in Norway that Norwegian agriculture would have had big trouble if we had joined European Union in 1994 and we are a country quite far north doing much of the agricultute north of the Arctic Circle and having Brussels governing all this I think most people realise that would have to be very difficult. The people of Norway don't want to be a part of the European Union and right now you see that the troubles that the European Union are going through is so deep and so different than what we have in Norway you wouldn't get it through in Norway. Well I think many of the rules they are not they are not made in Europe at all many of the International rules are made up in quite different bodies around the world and they are global not Europe centered, so I think the future is not looking only on Europe you have to look all over the world and to make better world for all of us. This is a key point all regulations in the EU don't originate from Brussels some are passed down from world bodies such as the Codex Alimentarius. Richard spoke with the Norwegian chairman of its fisheries committee. The mandate of Codex work is to ensure food safety and fair practices in trade. Codex works both on regional standards, but primarily on global standards. In a formal sense your a global government or have global governance in another sense? Yes we establish trade rules that would be to the benefit of consumers all over the world and would also be, as I see it, a benefit for trade operators, since the other objective is the fair practices in trade. When our Prime Minister Mr. Cameron says that when agreeing these standards we need to be at' the top table'. Codex is 'the top table', isn't it? Codex is' the top table' for International standards settings but I wouldn't say that the UK has, both in the European Union and in Codex always presented its views based on science, based on skills, based on historical evidence and based on a heavy seafood sector, so the UK will be heard both in the European Union and in Codex when it comes to seafood questions. What's the significance of what we just heard Richard? The first point that emerges is that Norway is fully involved all the way through the decision process. The second thing that comes over, is that the EU is effectively just a middleman, that the EU's not creating standards it's part of the process and when it comes down the EU turns the standard if you like into European law and then the member states including Britain implement it. I wonder if such facts will be reported in our future news bulletins. Sources in Downing Street are indicating that a decision has been taken on the date for a referendum on Britain's continued membership of the European Union and that it will be announced later today. The Norwegian national broadcaster is NRK which keeps its finger on the national political pulse. I spoke with one of its leading commentators. The Norway situation is that the economy is healthy, there is low unemployment, no debt, national debt and we have a very very strong economy because of the oil resources in the North sea. Why do you think the people of Norway voted not to join the EU 20 or so years ago? The Norwegian people have voted no twice, two referendums we've had and the Norwegian people have said no twice. The explanations are twofold, one is traditionally there is a very strong conflict between the central areas of Norway the elite and the rural areas, which became very obvious when we debated the EU question and the the experience that decisions would move from Oslo and Norway to Brussels was a very strong argument why the Norwegians voted 'no', so they said we want to make our own decisions we don't want Brussels to make them. The other is a strong leftist movement in Norway who are very sceptical towards market liberalism and towards what's happening in the economic sector in the European Union. Norway manages very well outside the EU financially and economically and politically and in every way. Norway is a healthy country and you can't really say that it would have been better if we were on the inside. No politician can say that, what some politicians say is that we should have the influence we would have if we were sitting around the table in Brussels instead we're just receiving EU law and regulations by email every week from Brussels. Norway has influence and one of the main reasons for that is of course, that is an important energy exporter of oil and natural gas. Norway is a big player in that area. When you have control over resources like that you always have a say. One of the things that occurs to me is the political self-determination of this country and the maturity of their politics. These people have prospered, these people are doing well, they're happy, they're contented. It's very interesting to see this in action. If you go back to 1972 when you joined the European Union you were together with Norway and Switzerland and others in another trade and negotiating area and if you consider that again we have the UK, we have Norway, we have Switzerland and we could also join Iceland and have a kind of North Atlantic cooperation but that means that UK cannot think that they should be the boss of this system they must accept that they are a part of the system with equals and the free trade thinking of English agriculture, which historically has been quite strong, also has to be revised in such a system but that would just be wise and would give rise to a more prosperous and vibrant rural England. Norway's abundant wildlife and its rich culture and strong business ethos are valued by its people. And the security this brings is recognised at Oslo University where academics have studied the impact of remaining outside the European Union. We have particularly focused on institutional developments and also the constitutional and democratic. So kind of common denominator for all the work is really the concern about democracy and its preconditions and if you want the challenges in a changing world. It has generated a lot of security for business basically. You know the operation rules, we may not agree with all the them, but basically it renders as a high level of predictability to productive activity in general and also Norway has participated in a lot of the different schemes that the EU has, including for instance research schemes and so on and therefore it has not left us out, we are cooperating on par with other Europeans and we're not suffering from not being a formal member in that sense. For at least one government minister, also a board member of the Norwegian Centre Party, the argument about staying out was won long ago. I was 14 years old I think 13-14 and the referendum on the EU membership was coming up in 1994 and my main arguments against membership at that time was that it would be a deficit to the Norwegian democracy to move the decision-making from local governments, regional governments and from the Norwegian Parliament to Brussels and of course ahead of the referendum in '94 there was a big grassroots movement against membership and we succeeded. We were told up all the catastrophies that Norway would suffer if we did not join the EU, for instance we were told that, from the government which was pro membership, that we would lose fifty thousand jobs almost overnight, now obviously that has not happened. I think everyone would agree that the Norwegian economy and the Norwegian welfare state is much more solid and the private economy in Norway is stronger today than it was at that time. There's absolutely no one in the Norwegian debate that wants to join the EU and there's a vast majority in the Norwegian public that does not want EU membership and not only that but they want less integration with the EU. Well, the reason why we joined the EEA agreement was to be part of the internal market, which means that we can trade with the EU freely, there are some exceptions on processed fish but they're very very small and quite minor, I would say, but with the EEA agreement we have nearly free trade with the EU and it works very well. In terms of influence or decisions, well yes we are not at the table when the voting takes place but we are able to influence the directives at earlier stages. We have experts working in Brussels, we have dialogue, we take part in some of the committee meetings and hearings and we feel we have a very good dialogue with the EU and we are able to influence directives that are important for Norway. Now, at the end of the day when the voting takes place the situation is like this: Norway has the right to veto if a directive is not suitable for us if it is too controversial we can say no, while in the EU the countries are subject to majority vote, so I would say that we are better off. So where does this all leave us? Richard and I went on a cruise on Oslo Fjord to reflect on our visit. It's a fascinating relationship, isn't it. They don't want the EU, they do have this organisation called EFTA, the European Free Trade Association, this links them into the single market so they become part of the EEA, the European Economic Area and they're actively exploring areas of improvement, so they're ahead of the game, they're thinking ahead and looking to Britain to say come and join us. The meeting with their minister wasn't that powerful stuff. So different from the weasley words and the circumventions you get from British ministers you had somebody who was very very clear. We are at the beginning of an adventure not at the end of an era. One of the things I noticed is how very much government is not in your face here. Yes, you could sum it up: they govern themselves, we are governed. I think a lot of people have a curious view, that were we to leave the European Union, there would be battleships up and down the English Channel so to speak. That for some reason or another on both sides of the Channel we would be intent on cutting off our noses to spite our faces. The Norway option, membership of the European Free Trade Area, in friendship with our friends on the mainland, is one which is open to us and should be followed. I think there will come a moment when a decision has to be reached to stop all the arguing and talking to make a decision on whether we should remain as a member of this future European state or whether we should peaceably withdraw. I think that moment is not yet, I don't think that the debate is sufficiently well informed. In the UK senior political commentators have begun debating the significance of the Norway option and what that means to all of us. This is exactly the kind of thinking which we need to have more of. And you can see the Norway thing unbelievably well, it's much more democratic, it's a great country, enviable, of course there are certain differences with Norway. One is it's much smaller, a few million people and secondly they've got that amazing oil base, so their economy is not nearly as complex or as global as ours. It is worth making a point that you can't actually just pull out of Europe, you still need to have a relationship very complex trading relationship which would be regulated. The whole exit business is really interesting and how its handled, what are the new arrangements and one of the things which we'll all need to do actually ahead of the Yes/ No campaign is to work out the arguments. Peter Oborne was speaking at the meeting organised by the Bruges Group, at which Nigel Farage was challenged by the veteran Tory Euro sceptic MP Bill Cash, concerning the Tory marginal seats. That is something worth fighting for, that is the national interest, that is why I say to Nigel: lay off our marginal seats. Don't just try and go for a joint ticket, it won't work. But if you do it, you will then be allies and not our enemies. Thank you very much. But I have to say Bill, I'm sorry to say this, but listening to you this afternoon I've realised that you are a hopelessly out-of-date tribal politician, who has not recognised that British politics has fundamentally changed and to ask me to support a party led by Mr. Cameron in order that we can get back our national independence, I'm sorry you've got to do rather better than that. And finally into each life a little rain must fall. But we can all imagine a brighter future when the announcement many long for comes to pass The government says it has accepted the overwhelming popular vote to leave the European Union. The Prime Minister is expected to hold an unscheduled meeting with the Queen at Buckingham Palace at 2 o'clock, prior to addressing the House of Commons at 3.30. (Subtitles thanks to Margaret Parkinson, Glynis Oliver and Darren Sharman).