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TVP Teamspeak Q&A Seminar - 2012-05-27 - Expectations of Predictability (part 2)

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The Venus Project TeamSpeak seminar May 27, 2012. This lecture is about 33 minutes long, It is the second half of the one we did last week. It's on expectations and predictability. -I asked you a while back in one of your audio lectures about like a two minute handholder as far as relationships, you might like to hold hands for ten minutes, but I like to hold hands for an hour. (J Fresco) -That's okay. - How can you doing (?)a survey... - If a person needs handholding, you do it, if a person needs that. -But as far as compatibility, say somebody needs to listen to music to produce something, but -You must expect that. -(?) I can produce what I produce listening to the music. -Then you say that if you like certain things about them, say you like eight things about them and four things you don't like. So you keep away from that area, or you tell them that you've been brought up to dislike that kind of music. (?) that's terrible. I don't want to argue with you I'm just telling you the way I was brought up. I always cross my heart before I go off a diving board. I don't feel comfortable unless I do that. So, your question is, can I live with that? No. Then you have to disassociate in that area, do you know what I mean by area? I never discuss religion with my mother because I can't in the old days, I didn't know how. And no matter what I said, she said "I still believe in God." That means she was terribly insecure as a person. But if you say "You're terribly insecure" she doesn't say "That's right, I believe in the higher power that looks after us. There's too many wonderful things in nature that I can't explain so I assume all this did not come about by itself, that somebody out there did it, design it." And you say "Well, how do you account for earthquakes"? She says "After I die I'll understand all that. There's a lot...The Lord works in mysterious ways. There's a lot of things I don't understand, which I will later". There (?)are people that will talk like that. And I'm afraid of those people, I am afraid so I don't associate with them. I am afraid of people that hope the world will be better, I'm not afraid of people that make bridges and overbrace them, they won't cave in, that is the kind of thing... or designing fireproof buildings if you don't want kids and anybody else to be burned in the fire. And then if you study Nutrition you know that certain foods and certain things are cancer producing and then it's your job to tell them from what you've read, that that thing that you eat all the time produces harmful effects or damage to the kidney. You (?)say "You've done what you can do, that's all you can do." If they continue to do that, the next question is "can I live with that?" "I suffer", so you have to leave, but if you can live with it and they eat boloney and if they get cancer of the intestines, after ten years, that's probable, you know what I mean? Should you be (?) hold their hand? Yes, if they need hand holding. "I should have listened to you. Well that's after the facts. You can't do anything; but if you hold their hand they feel more comfortable. Laying (?) hands for some people relieves pain, if you're sympathetic. if they're dying and they say "Do you think there's a god"? "- It's what you think that counts. - Well, I think there is, I think I'm going to be with the Father." Say "Yes." Don't say...don't talk to them if you're an atheist, if they're on their way out you don't want to depress them to say "I think there will be flowers and beautiful gardens (?) and no earthly problems", because that's what they want to hear, and (?) "Thanks, God bless you". You got to understand who you are dealing with. Now some doctors have just committed an operation, or performed an operation, they say "do you think he'll (?)learn to live, with less pain? You say "I did all I could do, it's now in His hands." Have you ever heard that? The recovery "It's in his hands" So if he drops dead the next day, "well, that's what the Lord wanted. All I did is the best I knew how". But people that believe in god, if you're a doctor, say "Do you think he'll recover completely?" It's best to say "It's in His hands". Because they won't understand. "I did the best I can not knowing how to suture some intestinal problems, I did the best I knew how. If it's (?) good enough I'll let you know in a month or two." You can't talk that way to normal people, normal means that they're going to get mad at you: "What do you mean you didn't know how to suture?" You know...what do you suggest? Well they can't suggest anything, but they put it in your hands, and they thank god, it seems so mixed up. If a doctor repairs a broken finger (?), he sets it right, you say "Thank God" If there was no doctor, the finger would be crooked all the time, so you thank the doctor; you can thank the doctor with god's help if you're brought up, if you need that, hold hands with people that need it. And cater to, if you care about the people, otherwise, you say, I can't do anything about it. You can't be rational with people, you can be as rational as they permit, do you know what that means? If you're looking for rationality, you may get hurt. Whatever they do is what they do. If a person spits...I know a guy, when I was a kid, his son was ran over by a Mack truck, really crushed, and he used to stay on the corner yelling at all trucks that went by for the rest of his life. He mentally could no accept that. So he used to stand on a corner yelling at every truck that went by. That's insufficient tools to handle the problem. Yelling at a truck doesn't make them any safer, But if he designed a proximity unit so the truck dropped a canvas bag (?) picked up the kid, I would say that's better than yelling at the trucks. But the reason I don't like religion, because people don't have any tools to work with, the Church says it's in His hands. When the Lord calls, He calls you, it has nothing to do with what age you are at. So the minister (?) learns to say "did you enjoyed the seven years that god gave you that child? (?)then the Lord took him back, he liked him." So if it gave you a wonderful child, for seven years you should thank him for that. He could have been taken away right away. You know, if they don't come up with things like that, they can't maintain a congregation. (?)He doesn't say "Look the kid got run over by a Mack truck either you accept it or you don't." Well the guy (?) goes to another church. If the minister talked that way he wouldn't be in business very long. "What ever happens is the will of god." That's what they do in the Arab world. It's the will of Allah no matter what happens. If a bridge caves in and a bus goes off of the highway with a thousand people in it, it's the will of Allah. Well if you accept the will of Allah, if you oppose the will of Allah, you're not a good Muhammadan. Do you know what I mean? Whatever happens is the will of god. (?)And I heard a blind man say, he said it to me "since I lost my eyesight I really learned to appreciate vision", Do you understand that? He said "that's the Lord's way of telling me 'I gave you eyesight, I gave you hearing I gave you taste, and you bitched a lot. Now that you are blind, you now understand.'" Sometimes when a person is crippled, he watches people running and envies them. Just being able to run. If you loose the use of your legs you're going to either sit home, look at the window or you are going to say "I sure envy those people that are able to run. They don't appreciate what they've got." So if you appreciate everything you got, there's a tendency for you not to grow. Everything I design, I change, continuously, because I don't know everything, so I accept the fact that I am going to change things, If I don't, other people will. If I don't keep up with it, I will fall behind, so I try to read technical briefs that are not always productive, but I have to read a lot of shit. There's a lot of stuff I don't agree with. Technical briefs are just technology without human concern. And technology with human concern is a system I identify with. I say "What is this for? Why do you want to build a new world? Why do you care about what people do? If it's the will of Allah, they do whatever Allah wants them to do. You can't change it. You can't change human nature." There's a tendency of them to give up if they can't change human nature. Why bother with school? Why bother with ethics? Why send your kid to church? If greed is normal in human nature, ask them why they send their kid to religious school? Because it can change human behavior, that's why. If you want your kid to be moral and ethical, you're not going to get it from the Atheist club, because they don't deal with that, do you understand? Okay, are there other aspects you want to discuss? -If you have an expectation and you're dissapointed, it doesn't go your way, What are the tools to ease the pain or to eliminate... - "I don't know what he'll do, I don't know what she will do under those conditions. Will those conditions occur and she does what you call "the right thing", that you know? But you don't know what different people will do under different conditions. Do you think you know what I mean? -Instead of (?)going to a prescription drug, or picking up a bottle of alcohol or whatever(?)... Those are the tools that people have. -Give them new tools. That you did not make the world. That things go, bugs crawl. Worms eat people. When I was a kid it was a song called (?). I don't know if you ever heard of it. ? They put you in a big black box, and cover you up with dirt and rocks, the worms crawl in, the worms crawl out, the big fat juicy worm goes into your mouth.? We used to sing this as a kid and that modified me in many ways. And I saw that in dead cats, the worms would do all that, coming out of their eyes and everything else. And i said, I don't want to see things like that, if I don't see things like that, I always have glorious pictures of the world, I avoid stuff like that. The real world is whatever the hell it is. If in the Arab world a guy beats his wife three or four times a day, if that's normal in that culture, when you go to the Arab world, you didn't go there, you weren't sent there by anyone to undo that. But if the Arab world said "we're tired of beating our wives, we don't like the practice, can you do anything about it?" Say "well, I studied human behavior, I'll try to do what I can." So if a guy only beats his wife once a week now, you say "He still beats his wife", that's good, they (?) to four times a day (?)Means you've done something. The trouble with us, we want 100% change in people, and that's irresponsible thinking. So if a guy beats up his kid three times a day, now he beats them once a month, you're doing good for that guy, If a guy says I've been a robber, a thief and a murderer. Now I only steal occasionally every three months, if I see something I like I'm very (?)careful and I steal it. But you've done something, but if he still steals, you get mad at him and say "He's been doing it all the time." People grow at increments, do you know what that means, little by little? So if you find degrees, if a guy says "If I don't know something, I look it up on the website. That's better than asking your brother-in-law, what he thinks. Unless his brother in law is a student of human behavior. But if you ask your cousin that's older than you, "What do you do in this case?" That isn't the best information you can acquire. If you read books on human behavior you're more apt to get better information then what is going to come out of your brother-in-law, or your dad. In the Bible it says "Honour thy father and mother" so I tried this on a priest. I said "My mother hates the Catholic Church", he was a catholic, "and she spits everytime she sees a picture of a pope or anybody else. Should I honour them?" And the priest becomes confused. Because most parents project working in behalf of their children. They work in behalf of their conditioning. If their children don't do the right thing according to their standards, "The strap will do it!" according to their father's standards. So you have to give people tools. I used to teach my kids if a building catches fire wet a blanket put it over your (?) and go out the door. Or if it's smokey, crawl on the floor, because smoke rises, and my wife would say "What are you telling them these things for? I hope they're never in that situation." But that's the best I could do, giving them tools for that situation, while I'm teaching them whatever else I know. Do you understand that? Now, sometimes people live in a criminal neighborhood and they can afford it and they have bars on all windows so if it catches fire and they can't get out either, with the bars on the windows. It keeps the thieves out, it keeps them in, unless, there's a gadget they turn and the bars roll off, from the inside. Do you understand what I mean? So I can't handle that, I can only do what I know. And if it doesn't work I don't say "Jesus, if I only knew that", I say "Look, I didn't know that" so I never made a mistake in my life. I never did the wrong thing, and if I knew the right way (?) I know that I don't know how to use my tools properly. I'm still projecting. And if a person says four thing I like, I project all kind of wonderful characteristics into that person, which they may or may not have. So it isn't another person that hurts you, it's your own projections Do you understand that? Do you have problems with that? The tools are: whatever works. If I say "The Lord took my son because He was lonely, and the child was a beautiful child and He wanted that child in Heaven. I said "The Lord knows what He's doing, thank you for the seven years you've given me that child." There are people like that, whom accept, because they really believe in god. not too many, but they are people like that. "That is what the Lord wants I have no right to complain." "He made me, He made my son, if He took him back, it's His son too." You know, so you can rationalise your way out of every hole, Do you understand what I mean? If you're brought up that way. The people of India, a lot of them are brought up to believe that they're put on Earth to suffer for their bad karma. So the more you suffer, the more you're paying of karma that you committed in another life. Do you understand? If a person says "Jesus, the house burned down I lost three kids, I'm paying off my karma. Well, in India it's easier to accept renunciation of all material wealth. Because there's not enough to around. It's a good philosophy in India, won't work in New York at the Stock Exchange. The word "success" (?) a successful person, the person says "I don't believe in business" and I don't believe in the money system," absolutely totally rejects it and he sleeps under a bridge, he wears old torn clothing, you say he's a bum, he's a failure. He's successful to his values. Can you understand that? The millionaire doesn't give a shit about people, (that guy) that makes millions, that's his ambition, he's successful to his values, in that area, making money. So what's a successful person? Any person that has a philosophy that lives (?) successful to their values, not necessarily to life. If people he meets don't agree with him, then he spits, he's troubled, he doesn't have the proper tools. But if he looks at them, "Well, they have different value systems", they don't spit. Like a Jew spits at a swastika, or the German get a lump in his throat, he feels sympathetic to it, so I would say that all behavior is shaped by culture, and if you have the means to change it, you do it, if you don't have the means you try to find it. If you find yourself projecting, you say "Boy, I sure projected a hell of a lot into that person. Facing the truth is very difficult. It's much easier to say "They fucked up get mad at them". They're always consistent with their background, do you know what that means? Okay. Everybody is consistent with their background; there are no good or bad people, there are people who you can't identify with, so you don't associate with them. If their values are too different than yours, you're going to have trouble. So, if you're able to turn their values around at a cost, say "Five years from now I'll be able to relate to that person perfectly well. If from experience you can determine, that it may take five years, or two years, one year, sometimes it takes one session, if the person is really looking for an answer, if you provide that answer, they can in one session, remember that the rest of their lives. If their ready for it. If they respect their own opinion, it make take time. Because when you take a person's values they lose their identity. If you're a Lutheran I take god away from you, and leave you in mid-air, you say "What makes forest fires, what make them?" you're left in mid-air, but if you meet those needs of what a person has, (?) if they can't let go of god, that "Man has free will, he can choose this or that" it's up to what you choose, if that is where they're at. You can't hit everyone with the truth. Sometimes doctors do, they say "You've got cancer and you got about three months to wrap up your affairs. But if a person gets hysterical "No, you must be wrong", you go to another doctor and says the same thing "You've got about three months to live, wrap up your affairs." But if you say "Ah, doctors are only interested in your money, and you never know" But if you have a positive attitude, you're apt to live five years, or ten years. The person would rather listen to you, than the doctor (?)says "You've got two months to live." Do you understand that? It depends on how badly damaged the person is. And if you do have a positive outlook you could live longer. There are many cases when a person was dying in the hospital And the son was far away in another country, and it would take him a week to get back so the guy would live another week because he expected to see his son. So your attitude can preserve life longer. So when a person says "Do you believe in diet?" Not entirely. If you eat the best food in the world, and you're pet dog got run over by a Mack truck, you might throw up, what happened to the good food? It isn't the good food, it's your attitude plus what you eat. Do you understand? If you have a very negative outlook, "The whole world is fucked up, they're all stupid, they'll never learn anything", then you hurt yourself even though you eat organically selected food, you hurt yourself. If you accept the reality out there, not in your head; if lightning hits a tree, you say "The Lord didn't want that tree around", or you can say that lightning hits a tree because it was grounded. But don't get mad or glad. You ask yourself "can I do anything about it?" "No I don't know enough about it to do anything about it. Then you must accept whatever occurs unless you learn how to do something about it. Do you know what I mean by doing something about it? Make a (?)scale , make a device, come up with a dietary formula, a way of easing pain, that's what I mean about doing something about it. And there are many religions that do not (?) permit easing pain, "if the Lord didn't want you to have pain, you wouldn't have it, so pain was there for a reason, and if you give a person narcotics and they don't feel the pain, you're putting bad karma (?) you still got to pay off. You are interfering with his payments. Do you understand? If you're brought up that way. So you got so many things (?)do a survey, if they're metaphysical, get the hell out of the picture. Because you can't do anything with it. But if you hope for the best, there are many people that do, and they are comfortable all their lives, and they believe the Lord was looking after them, and they don't wonder why are there poor people out there, because "the Lord knows what He's doing, they're not poor for nothing, they're poor for a purpose." So you can rationalise your way out of being sympathetic or caring, do you know what I mean? By saying "The Lord wanted him to be wealthy, he would be wealthy. That's why I believe in the Lord, he gave me a Cadillac, a yacht and two wonderful children and a wonderful wife. "I don't know why the Lord picked on me, but thank god." You know, it's pleasing not have to carry the burden of the world. When there's an earthquake in Japan, you say "Well, it's because they worship the wrong god." That's why. I (?)didn't make it, so that's a Japanese problem. Now, I come to Japan to bring them the good Book, the Truth, Christianity. There are people who do that, they go to different countries to bring god to them. "That's why they're suffering so much in Haiti, because the blacks are promiscuous they worship false gods, that's why they're suffering so much. I would say they lack information, certain types of... Or they lack the resources to make it happen. Resources means education, whatever the hell is lacking. But I don't look at a person that says "Today's my lucky day — *knocks wood* .I look at them as victims of culture not bad people, I don't see any bad people. Do you understand that? Now, it's much easier to get mad at people and get angry and yell, rather than keep it inside. If I do something that Roxanne doesn't like, (?) a terrible thing, as long as she gets it out of her system, or she swallows it, she hurts herself, do you understand? If you really can't accept what I say, the best thing is to tell a person " - I didn't like what you did Saturday. - And what was that? Say "because you didn't tip your hat when you saw aunt Minnie." There was a time that was normal for a guy to tip his hat waking down the street. In France they had, they used to a pisser that was about up to your chest, so you couldn't see the guy pissing. But he used to tip his hat to people walking by while he was pissing. Now you say that's obscene, that's terrible, if that if where you're coming from. Everything that another person doesn't know about, is unacceptable, that is it doesn't fall through their head smoothly. If you take an Indian, they made a movie called "Eskimo", years ago they took an Eskimo, brought him to New York, educated him, but he still wanted to go back to the igloo, and to the end of the picture he goes back to the igloo, because that's where his identity was with his mother, his father (?) New York was too much of a change, do you understand that? That's why some older people say "They've gone too far". because they were brought up under farming conditions, different conditions. The guy that grows food hydroponically is not living naturally. And if they get mad at you then just say "Wearing clothes is unnatural, living in a house is unnatural, wearing eyeglasses is unnatural", do you know what I mean? What are you going to do with all that? So are there people that live unnatural? I say most people do. Brushing your teeth is unnatural; in Polynesia the women used to chew coconuts every morning, and they cleaned their teeth, but they had got some coconuts between the teeth. But they used to chew food and push it into the baby's mouth, like that, with their tongue. And that gave to children more antibodies from the other person, but they didn't do it for antibodies, they did it because that is the way they were brought up. When the witch doctor throws his son-in-law into the volcano, he's not a bad guy, he's doing what he's been told, is what the volcano needs to stop erupting. There are so many different types of conditioning, so many types of things that people believe that have no basis at all, and they have no way of knowing. And people kill other people because of their value differences. Do you know what I mean? There's always somebody who wants to kill you no matter what you believe. -You said that we want predictability. -Well, that's what people really want, but you can't have it just by wanting it. You can have it by learning. -Is it worthwhile (?) Predictability for (?) many people? Anyway you'll have problems (?) Predictability. If you fall in love four hundred times and the girls disappoint you, the girls didn't disappoint you, the girls didn't disappoint you, it's your own projections that disappointed you. You didn't know what they'd do in certain circumstances. -Are expectations and projections(?) the same thing? -Yes, expectations and projections. Unless your expectations are based on technology, when you mix certain chemicals together you're going to get a foam. Do you know what I mean? That's not projection, that's experience. Most animals they will project sometimes, animals, but most of them if they don't run after the animal and kill it or (?) hold its throat, until they die, they're easier to eat. They move around while you're eating them alive. It seems that jackals don't learn that. They eat the animals while it is still alive. But some animals kill the animal first, it's not that they don't want them to suffer, they find it easier, and some animals tear the fur away, or feathers before they start biting, because the feathers interfere with the taste. And no animal says "Maybe the (?) has a familia to go back to, they don't think that way. A respectable person is one that acts in accordance with the dominant values. So I can't respect anybody. They act in accordance with the dominant values (?). You know, that's a dominant value I don't respect a king, but in the old days a man was appointed a king because he fought in a battle, and he killed a lot of the enemy, so he was the king. But the king's son did nothing, but he inherits the kingdom. He's called a prince. And in my school books, the prince was always the hero. And the nations with kings and queens were respected. The Queen said this the king said that. All my school books upheld old cultures, did your school do that? Did you have the sacred prince? And I thought that princes were people who ran the community with a fucked up value system. Other things poisoned me (?) whatever I've been exposed to. I wasn't right or anything, I was exposed to enough bits to see the falseness of that. In my neighbourhood there were so many different beliefs systems that my parents used to say "That's a good belief system, that's a bad belief system", And the people that I got to know, that were in the "bad belief system" were good, good people. So I saw good and bad in all people in the old days, that's the language that we used, good and bad, or right and wrong. But the real world was contradictory to what my parents taught me. So did I lose respect for my parents? My concept of respect changed. But I never told my parents that "You're belief systems are limited." Because that didn't work, you'd get a spanking. -Okay, there are a lot of social experiments existing in peer communities that are much, much closer to a resource base economy than everything else. How can we use these initiatives to help the transition, can we enter existing communities and transform them to be more like a resource based economy? -The real effectiveness of any system is after it's installed. We can't do that in a transitional system. -Do you think we can approach existing communities and introduce the Resource Based Economy? -Yes, you can attempt to do that but it cannot be manifested until it's installed. -So you're talking about any community in itself wouldn't be in a Resource Based Economy? - Exactly that. - Yes. - It would be a transition step, though... - Yes. -Does anybody want to take the next question? - I can. (R Meadows) - Sure, go ahead. -Are the experiences from initiatives such as Marinaleda, transition network towns or (?) renewable important for The Venus Project... I'm sorry for the reading of this. Are they important for The Venus Project or are they going in a completely opposite direction? I volunteered to take this question because I actually did a little research about the places that the question was mentioning, especially the Marinaleda, just one second... I would say that the question is I would say a bit (?)extreme when it comes that they're going in a completely different direction. Marinaleda is a community that is based on a plot of land that's twenty five square kilometers, There are twenty seven hundred people there. It's actually an agricultural town. And workers do get payed, even though they get payed the same wage, it's 47 Euros for a six and a half hour working day, they had an unemployment rate which is considered quite low out of the 27,000 people there 130 of were unemployed, but that actually constitutes a 4.8 percent unemployment rate which for those of you who are not aware this is actually a high unemployment rate. And other things like, well they actually get payed for... sorry they do pay actually to get medical health in the hospital, and stuff like that. I wouldn't say from TVP's point of view that they're going in a completely different direction I would say that they, as Roxanne mentioned a minute ago, that it can be a transitional phase, but I would say that these towns, these agricultural towns, in general, they are based on labor, meaning that the people who live there work and produce their own goods and let's say services. and this cannot really be compared to a Resource Based Economy because the necessity, let's say the compulsory labor is actually taken out of the equation. So I would say that they are doing the best they can to facilitate the transition in their own way in their own ideology. (R Meadows) -Thanks a lot for that. Why didn't Jack (?) work closely with you after you left Bensonhurst? I read his books and it seems that (?) had very good knowledge on a Resource Based Economy, I think he would have made a valuable member of The Venus Project. -Perhaps he would have, I don't know, I was gone for years, when I left New York. So I don't know what he followed through on. -He did a lot of good work after you stopped seeing him, in regards to spreading these ideas and these values. - Yes. -He did have a membership with Sociocyberneering, but not The Venus Project. But Jack (?) stayed in very close touch with Jacque, when he was alive right up until when he died. - So, you know, we saw him a couple of times since I knew Jacque 35 years ago. - Yes. in California and in Venus, so he always trying to help this direction and always trying to help Jacque essentially. -Yes. -But we didn't have a type of organisation set up like we do know. -Right. -I think he was one of the few of the kids that Jacque changed a great deal that really followed through more so helping to spread these ideas than anyone else. Wouldn't you say? - Yes. -Anybody want to take the next question? -I can go (?). -Yes, I'm not sure what this article is so, if anyone has read it... -The article is basically Richard Stallman's, let's say comment (?) a comment, rather, than anykind of official statement towards the principles of The Zeitgeist Movement. And I would say that there's some kind of misunderstanding he points lets say three points that basically that the statement has some flaws, I really don't know what this question has to do with The Venus Project. As far as I can say that Stallman has missed out on a lot of information, maybe due to that reason maybe due to the reason that he actually concentrated on The Zeitgeist Movement's agenda and principles, rather than actually go directly to The Venus Project. The first thing he mentions is that the variety is too big, of goods and services that (?)provided in the system thus a computerized system that kind of chooses, not chooses but decides, what to be produced and how much resources to be involved. Is to difficult to accomplish which again it's a bit difficult to actually constitute at this stage because today we have very, very advanced systems that banish such productions Maybe he is not aware of this? The second thing that he actually mentions is that we cannot predict the changes of values. Some kind of values out there might not be, let's say, applicable for the culture we are travelling towards. I'm sure that you would find the lecture of Jacque Fresco 'Functional ethics' from 1974-1980s There it actually explains about values; there's another lecture which the name is 'Identifying and changing values', I'm sure that you will find that interesting too, and the third when he actually states that there is a human nature, and the aspect of the human nature, the tendency to compete, there is no solution for that in this statement of the principles of The Zeitgeist Movement. Yet again I would like to conclude that this is the statement of principle of The Zeitgeist Movement and not of The Venus Project, and that the last, third point is not really valid as we, as anybody who was actually read a lot of information from Jacque's books and listened to a lot of his lectures, we know that the tendency to compete is not human nature as there is no human nature. (J Fresco) -No, I don't usually comment on that, because that's another person's point of view. And I can only deal with The Venus Project and the person is giving his own limitations, so I don't deal with that. - Yes, you are correct about competition, it is generated by society, if you don't have competition in this society you don't get goods or services, so you are always trying to compete, win out over somebody else's wellbeing, actually when it comes down to it. So that wasn't really about The Venus Project, you're right. Thanks for the comment on that article. Changes takes some time, can we talk about certain percentage of a Resource Based Economy, this is fourty percent Resource Based Economy, this is eighty percent, this is ninety five percent for example? And can we put it like a game, like to challenge for existing communities to change and become fully Resource Based Economy? (J Fresco) -No, it would serve no useful purpose. -Yes, there's a big controversy about people starting their own communities or feeling that they could approach communities and change them to a Resource Based Economy or they would understand it better because they live communally, I think it's a great idea to introduce this value system or Resource Based Economy to any existing community that's working in some ways they might understand it more so, if they are living communally. But these are communities that started just for self preservation, they didn't start understanding the direction of a Resource Based Economy or The Venus Project, nor are they advocating that. They're living pretty much that I know that, the different communities pretty much within themselves to have a higher standard of living and being more cooperative. And that does work in some instances and others that they can't exist in the monetary system and be able to make it and have resources. So there really are no communities out there that are basing their designs on a Resource Based Economy. If we have a community it may not be totally self-sufficient, the first community within the monetary system. I don't see how we can be, unless we have a tremendous amount of money into it and resources by different people who donated it, I mean that is a possibility. But what we are advocating is a total social global systems approach, and it's a total social economic system, that's new in all aspects, and if we get the first city going, when we get the first city going, there might be many different variables how that might come in existence and what that might look like within the monetary system. But ideally it would have people in that first city that are all working toward in some way, working toward a global Resource Based Economy. There will be people who will be writing books, we hopefully will have full complete studios, for films, doing gaming, I mean doing the things we are trying to do now but all in one location with resources so it could happen more so. We'd have technicians there, technical people that are working on the next city, who are working on the automated systems to make the next city better, hopefully we would have a theme park of the future, what we call theme park of the future. It wouldn't be just entertainment, but it would be a theme park, where people would go and actually see what a Resource Based Economy on a global scale looks like, so they'd have something to aim toward. Everything that will be done in the theme park would be to understand the values, the direction and the shortcomings of what people are living in today, so when you talk about existing communities being a Resource Based Economy, they aren't at all, nor do they think about it in these terms, so we'd ask you to learn more about what a Resource Based Economy is and what (?) might it be like, and what we are advocating. You can't superimpose it on existing communities. There are all kinds of different communities that are existing today some are very metaphysical, some are very religious, but they're not really advocating a Resource Based Economy. But that doesn't mean that we don't stop talking to them or inviting them in what we're doing, or trying to explain what we are doing more so, or if they can incorporate all those things, that will be fine. Okay, Jacque please would you detail what similarities that were between Catran's Walden Three and what it will be like living in The Venus Project? -There's no sense in doing that because he didn't consult with me on that design, it was Catran's interpretation of what he felt The Venus Project will be like. But it had nothing in common with the actual workings of The Venus Project. -Have you ever read Stuart Chase's book called 'The Proper Study of Mankind' if so, what are your thoughts on it? -I would say since he did not touch the system and offer an alternative design I have no comments. His main (?) was Communication and Semantics, which was insufficient, for attaining a Resource Based Economy. -Jacque can you elaborate on your thoughts about social transition from the monetary system to a Resource Based Economy? -Well roughly this system would undergo violence when they cut the support of the poor. When you cut out medical and sufficient funds to buy food, people would form large groups and brake store windows and take what they need, if not for themselves, they'll do it for their own children. Then I believe that the existent establishment will call on National Guard to try to maintain order as best they can. That won't work. The troublesome area will be the transition because we don't control the transition. The transition will be monitored by the establishment. It's going to be a lot of problems, assassinations, murders, crimes of all sorts. The transition will not be smooth. That's all I can say about it now. I think the best hope for the transition is what people do to work towards it, to introduce... You know, these ideas, although we've been working at it for a long time, are relatively new for the general public. And it depends on what...a lot of people come to the tour and say "How are you going to get to the transition? When is everything going to come about?" But as we always say we have no money, we have no power, it depends on what every else does if you want to see it happen, then you have to work towards it, otherwise I can assure you nothing is going to happen. So it just depends on who you meet and who other people get to to introduce this to, and how much people work at it to try to introduce it to the public. -I'm sorry, I see the transition as very bumpier rough, because most people are not that familiar with it. -They don't know what to advocate. Anybody want to take the next question? -I can try to answer that. Is there an easy way with examples to possibly convince people that politics will not solve people's problems? I live in Egypt and now people have really high expectations about the elections and they wish to change the mindset. I would say that there is not easy way of changing the people's mindset if they already made up their mind. They really have to start to question the system first and then you can present the shortcomings and solutions. One of the ways that actually may be useful to make them understand that the politicians, most of the politicians don't know anything about social change, or don't contribute to social development at all, just as Jacque always talked about it, just approach the politicians and ask them specific questions: How do you improve the lives of people? How can you produce more food? how to make transportation safer? They don't have answers for that so that may show that(?) they are not competent to be decision makers. But if you would like to change the mindset of people it's not something that you just go and approach them with different views, you have to make it in a certain time, when social pressures are right, when they are ready to make the next step, when they are looking for different solutions you can present to them the different views, you can educate them about the system and so on. -When politicians attempt to solve problems they have no idea how to go about it. It is only when they (?)fail that you might get some new ideas in. -Okay, thanks. Can we live in something like a Resource Based Economy before most people adopt this direction creating such communities with our labour and creativity, how to organise this better, how to organise it most helping the transition do you see it as a next step (?)communities(?)? -Only if the majority of people know about The Venus Project and they say "How do we go about it?" And we give them a blueprint only when they ask the question, when they are ready for that. If they are not ready for it, you have to wait until the system collapses entirely, otherwise people really don't give a damn unless it affects them. When they can't get a job and don't get relief and don't get food in a emergency, they'll be looking for answers. -What about people within, those who want to see a Resource Based Economy do small communities toward it? Do you see that? -Well that's better than nothing, but it's not the answer. -I know that there were some people who came to us and said -we would like to build a Venus Project community, we'd like your blueprints, we'd like you to oversee the people, we like you to do this and do that, and they were dictating what the community would be like. This is not something we feel we are interested in putting our time and energy in right now, the only way we would do this, the only way Jacque and I would do this if we had enough fundings to do it because, you know, we initially took twenty years or twenty five years to build this ourselves with no funding having to work no outside funding and we have to finance the whole thing, we had to make the buildings by hand it just took too long, it wasn't worth it, we had to do all the models, the renderings you know we did all that, and it's something we don't really want to go through again with very minimum funds. This is not what we are trying to advocate for our time. We are trying to get a large city going, a larger city going, we are sending out blueprints for quotes, we do have people that maybe able to get quotes for the engineering and the architectural(?), we are working on all this, but we wouldn't take on our time and energy to do just to try and have people go out and go get donations from few people; it's a huge job in terms of funding to buy land, to get materials, to build... people think it might be very easy but it's really not, and it's kind of a waste of our time we feel to start on that level again and not go to the next step. I think that if people want to do small communities so it's easier for them to live and get through certain things together as things start to fall apart, this is fine, whatever people want to do to make life easier for them, but if you have a nice little community and you were living well and sustainable and making your own food and doing pamphlets on a Resource Based Economy even, and the things start to fall apart, people are going to invade your little community, it's really a global situation and we're trying to reach out globally and internationally and make products that will reach the general public, not so much a community that lives to themselves. (J Fresco) -That's right. -Some engineers I talked to are frightened that mass use of geothermal power can cool the Earth and cause disaster. What do you tell them? -I don't tell them anything, because they don't understand how we convert geothermal energy to electrical energy. -Jacque, we were thinking in starting a political party, but in the manifesto to abolish the political system as it is today, why do you think that politics does not work? -Well politicians do not work; you need technicians to change the world. And they have to be members of The Venus Project, (?)that technicians have to follow The Venus Project procedures in order to make it work. In other words the technicians will be assigned different projects, building of schools, cities etc. But it has to be under the directive of The Venus Project, otherwise you're going to have each city a little different. It's not going to work. -A lot of times people want to come and do a political party and advocate different values in The Venus Project and that's fine, anyway you get these ideas out there would be fine, but Politics as it's set up today, it doesn't go anywhere, it only serves those who put them into power, and those who has differential advantage in the system, it's not there to help people at all. Anyone want to take the next question? Okay, will take this question. -It's hard to understand the question. -Right it is hard to understand the question. I think they're saying, I'm just guessing, that if the world rallies on economy, poverty, debt if they're becoming more educated about this, what can you say about this? Is this the beginning of the transition? -No, only if they advocate a system and describe how that system works Without that it won't work. They have to read the book 'The Best That Money can't Buy', and then ask the questions. They're asking questions without knowing enough about The Venus Project. This is the major problem. -Do you think that this is the time when things are falling apart in the world, though, collapse? -They still have to become familiar with The Venus Project, otherwise it won't work. -Yes, it's just like in Egypt. This collapsed there, they got rid of the person running the country but they got some other group that's even worse, more detrimental to people and more abusive. So if they don't have something to advocate, it won't work. -(?) a blueprint to improve the direction and performance, you have to have a whole staff of engineers, chemists, construction people, contractors, who understand the direction, who will participate and carry out the plans of The Venus Project. -Okay, Jacque, here's one for you, did you ever get distracted by girls when you were a young man developing your knowledge on the world? Did you try to minimise romantic relationships in order to work on developing your knowledge? -No I never did that, I always tried to teach people whatever I had to offer, this goes for girls, and my friends, I tried to introduce them to the best information I was able to accumulate at the time. -Did you tried to minimise romantic relationships so you can develop your work? -I don't know what a romantic relationship is. If they understood the direction, they join with me and we try to instruct others in the methods. -This says "Roxanne, what did Carl, from these early tapes", I guess from the 70's and 80's because I mentioned Carl gave us some of these tapes, he attended the lectures, "what did Carl do with his life? Did he work? Did he spread the ideas?" Yes, he does work, but he spends most of his time, he would say, "Learning new things", he gets very interested in reading books and traveling and he still comes here quite often and attends some of the tours that Jacque still gives. And he did try to spread the information the best he can, he is always very verbal and talks to people wherever he is. He lives in Miami, so... Okay, this is for you I guess Jacque. When you were designing things many years ago, as you were growing up, were there ever times when you were unemployed and had difficulty surviving day to day, what sort of coping mechanisms did you use during these financially difficult times? -I still worked at the design of systems, how to put up buildings more economically and how to reach different people that have value system that were very different than The Venus Project. I still worked on methods of trying to reach people, I never stopped doing that. -But you would also, as I remember you talking about it, also be working on different things that interest you, different devices that were... - I would assist in the building of The Venus Project. -Right. And there were times you went broke and you had to sell anything in your lab, right? - That's not unusual, I expected that. - Yes, just to get money to survive. - Yes. - And a lot of the thing you were working on were so different than the general technology of the day, there was nothing you could sell. - It was not commercial... - Yes. ...work that I was doing. -But then Jacque would make little gadgets and things just to sell so he could go back into his lab and work on the things he found were more interesting. - Yes. -Okay, any other questions? Jacque, in Waldon Three Catran talked a lot about events that happened during the Bensonhurst years, regarding your development. Are these events fictional or true? - You read that book a long time ago. - Yes, most of them (?) many events... some of them are true some are fictitious. - It was a lot of nonsense in that book wasn't it ? - Yes. - Yea. Differences in methodology was one of the main points that split The Venus Project and The Zeitgeist Movement. Jacque mentioned once that he not only worked on the essence of a Resource Based Economy, but also for years on methods; learning about methods seemed to be essential. Are Jacque's methods about how to approach people laid down somewhere or do we have to grasp them in little bits... - The book is called 'The Best That Money can't Buy'. Read that then ask your questions. -There's so much information in terms of how Jacque approached people even if you looked if you get some of his old lectures from the 70's and 80's, you'll actually see him talking to people who some of them would come over and over again, and so the lectures would get more interesting on specific details on different topics, and then you would know when people would come in and they would be more introductory lecture so you'd see how he works on people through those lectures, (?)then it's a really a wealth of information in those lectures and all the material that we have is trying to show up Jacque's methods of reaching people. So I don't think you'll miss them in all the lectures on CD's and DVD's and his books that we have. In a Resource Based Economy equality is achieved but what will happen to people who work for recognition? Will the unique character of the person be lost? (Sue) -I'll have a go on that if you like. -Sure, go ahead Sue. -Okay, well first at all we'd have a different mindset about working for recognition, we wouldn't be working for recognition, we'd be working for the good of society so that whole recognition, I want people to know that I've done this would be at the end of the day, really it's an ego thing, and as ego will eventually be overcome, that sort of mentality, that sort of the mindset will not exist. But that's got nothing to do with the unique character of a person, unique character of the person, we'll all be unique in our own ways anyway, some people will like more toward the (?)science, some people might tend more towards the artistic side, whatever, but that will be nothing to do with wanting to work for recognition. - Yes, say that again I didn't hear you. - I said very good, Sue. (Sue) -Thanks. -Yes, I wanted to mention something about the uniqueness of character, when people understand how they get their behavior and that they are really products of their environment and it's nothing special that they did personally. Even the idea being able to work at long hours to achieve things, this is achieved incrementally with people, so people have so many new abilities to do things and achieve things when they understand that anybody can learn anything and achieve many things, so people would be more multidisciplinarians, so this whole fallacy of just being unique because you know how to do something will be lost because you understand that anybody can learn to do many things if they're in the right environment and learning situation for that person. And recognition will be looked upon as a sickness in the future. -Yes, people will do things because they believe in what they're doing, they believe the world would be better, their lives would be better and people would have less conflict. They don't do it for recognition, they do it to build a participatory sustainable society. -This question is for me, I guess, "Okay, my question is more for Roxanne than it is for Jacque, I heard Jacque say that he is not really worried that he's not getting older..." I guess that he is getting older they meant to say. "There are much more important things to worry about and I know that Roxanne has been working with him for a long time. Does Roxanne feel that she can follow through with Jacque's plan for a Resource Based Economy alone? Sorry for my English." Well I don't think I'll be alone at it, and nor can Jacque can follow through on this alone. So, you know I learned a lot from him in 35 years and I know how to do many things technically as well, we have all his material that we documented very well, there's no way I can stop working towards this so I will do whatever I can at the time with I'm sure a lot of people's help who are helping us now. We couldn't without everybody's help at this point either. It's not going to come about with just Jacque alone or just with me or Jacque. (J Fresco) -Right. (Sue) -There's no way you be (?)able because there going to be all of us here as well, you know, so we are going to be there right by your side. -Absolutely. (R Meadows) -Yes, and there's no way I could do anything else, you know, once you get pass a certain point of understanding certain things you can't go back to Jesus, or you can't go back to trying to make money and improve your own lifestyle, that becomes very empty after a while, even though you need money to exist, but achieving that is not an achievement that's interesting. - Yes, you're always poisoned. (R Meadows) - That's right. -I'd have a go at the next question if you like. -Okay, great Sue. -Okay, the question is: "The fact that I have not consumed bananas during the last month doesn't mean that I will not want bananas the next month. Survey should be used to anticipate people's needs, so people would be expressing their will, and the management will have to accommodate those needs as long as there are resources to do it. Isn't this a voting process?" Well, basically the whole thing about the supply and demand would be very similar to what a supermarket or a store does today. They don't go out and ask people, "Next people would you like to buy bananas or apples?" They just do a general survey, and there will be more or less enough for everybody. Let's be honest, if it's bananas, (?)you don't eat bananas, but it's the same sort of system as we have now for the shops just on a very much larger scale. So it's not a voting process, it's a survey process, and they would be abundance anyway there will be more than enough. - That's enough Sue. - Yes, it's good. -"How can (?)we support the movie project now?" I guess if you know anyone in the field or if you want to send information to people that you feel might identify with The Venus Project and what the movie is going to be about. You know this is what I'm doing a lot, I'm (?) out to people, who I think... Actually we're hearing from different people, we're following through on that, but a lot of times when I see somebody I think might identify with this I try to get in contact him. I'm not always successful I seem to have more success when people are reaching out to us, but it's more important to try and contact people and let them know about this. And the question goes on, "If we can make videos and translate materials and talk to people, would that help bring about the movie sooner? (R Meadows) - Yes, I'm sure. (J Fresco) - By all means, it will help. -Yes, please, "So that Jacque could be alive for the new city." - Yes, that is what we're working towards. - Yes. - Can you hear me? - Yes. -Yes. -How to become a valuable specialist for Resource Based Economy (?) multidisciplinarian and how to (?) technical specialist to work on production information in Science or something, other useful thing, just how to gain useful experience now, because we can't get many specialists in a short time, we just need begin preparing now. -Okay, I would say, learn as much about The Venus Project as you can about this direction first, so you know what to advocate, especially 'The Best That Money can't Buy', or if you can make it to the tour here on Saturdays, or... but then learn anything in the scientific fields. People ask "what do we do to help The Venus Project, what should we study in school? We always say the physical sciences. And there so many things online, there's so many things all over the place, we begin to understand that science is questioning everything and everything is related with other things then you kind of automatically start to go between different fields but just learn as much as you can in the physical sciences, whatever interests you. -Right. -Roxanne, everything means nothing, just what to, how to learn, how to become a specialist, how to earn my living until I just now, I don't work, I don't have money to come to Venus, so and if I come to USA, how can I help The Venus Project if I don't have the...how can I help create the first city, if I don't have valuable skills, I think I need just to work on some progressive enterprise which will then provide useful experience for just production automation or other areas just for creating the first city or something like this. -Yes, anything related to the physical sciences as we said will be related to the things that we need for the development of the first city and a knowledge of The Venus Project and direction of a Resource Based Economy. So, anything you might be interested in relation to the physical sciences, science and technology. -And once you become skilled at some particular field, you will be assigned different projects. You have a list of assignments that people can join up with, and we will call upon you... -Yes, we have a database of professionals, over 3,000, yes. But we are going to have another database of other people's skills, other than just professional (?)of what people are interested into too, so that we can call upon them. But actually we're working on a new website, so other people can (?) change and update our website more easily. Andrew had handled all of that on our last website but he's gotten so busy that he can't handle all the changes and the things that we need so other people now are interested in helping with that and creating a new website would be easy to get around and we will be having that other database as well. -It's very important for me to feel that what I'm doing is useful, it's something beneficial for the world, for society, so and after (?) direction Resource Based Economy that I can't do anymore than a job, I can see that useless, so I can't just go straight in some useless thing, if I do so I feel very bad, I need something, I need just to work, I need to earn my living somehow but need to understand that this work what I do really changes the world positively I won't agree on anything less, but I don't understand just what to begin with... also I intent to migrate to the USA, or just to warmer climate or to USA also, and I just don't understand what to begin with, how to become a valuable specialist valuable world wide in different countries and how to begin even? - Okay, go ahead. - You go to school and you become an architect or an engineer. If you study Mechanical Engineering or Automation or Computer Science, you can help. -Yes, and you (?) could get books on what methods of science are. Yes, what Science is what the methods of Science... yes the different methods are about, right. - Then that's useful too. - Any technical field. -I have finished Politechnical University in Krasnoyarsk. This education is bowlshited and very slightly corresponds to reality. Just now I am learning MIT (?) online course, Electronics and Circuits. It is much better then this education, it is just much more lively, much more practical I would say, so but also education it is just knowledge is only a possibility of power, power is in applying knowledge to something knowledge you don't apply you lose it very quickly, so and in fact in Krasnoyarsk I don't know what production is very modern because most plants are just outdated, there's no demand, many specialists don't know what to do because there's no modification and one by other plants close (?) and don't know where to get practical experience. -I just want to say this, are you looking for a specific thing that will be suggested or could be suggested to you that you will be doing for the next twenty years and when the time comes you would directly able to help with the building of the first city, or the realisation of the Resource Based Economy, are you looking for a specific thing? -Yes, or several specific things, like Jacque said, we need multidisciplinarians specialists sure you need to begin with one, and then to develop in different directions, but I don't even know how to begin with. -Well I don't know maybe Jacque or Roxanne can interrupt me, but I don't know if anybody could actually tell you what specifically you can study or educate yourself with, and then in twenty years this particularly subject would 100% be needed. As far as I understood from Jacque and Roxanne, most applied sciences, most physical sciences yes Science and technology in general, you can pick something up that you like the most, meaning you get enjoyment in spending many hours on this and become as people say 'professional' on it, or basically have in-depth knowledge about this particular subject. -What you just said is correct. You do that and the more you know about any given subject, the easier it would be to give you different assignments. -We have one question here, "How does the creator fit in the theory of The Venus Project?" - It doesn't. - We have no understanding of that. - I don't know what you are referring to... - Yes, it was just a question of (?) -We'll take this one last question, Zachary wants to ask a question, I don't know if he's still there... (Zachary) - Hello everyone. - Hi (?). -Hi. -First I would like to introduce myself, I'm Zach, I'm training to be a co-PoC for California and I'll start (?) downtown Los Angeles, maybe work with some movie production and get some celebrities on board, and to get straight to my question however, when I'm talking with other TVP members, a popular subject likes to be brought up is religion. And my response is always that it's not a smart idea to talk about that at this moment in time in the society we live in as we want to get more people on board no matter what their little minute idiosyncrasy opinions are and some subjects would I believe would be just more productive not being spoken about. I was wondering since a lot of people listen to Jacque, if what his opinion was and what kind of policy when it comes to discuss religion or not, he would rather disseminate. -Jacque says if you can't handle religion, the religion aspect of it, if you have trouble with people then stay away from it deal with other things that you have in common with them that they understand until you have practiced, taking that on with some people and have some success. -If you study The Venus Project you'll find out that its final conclusions are everything that the Bible states, it's the Brotherhood of Humanity. -Yes, tell them the similarities. It's everything that religion talks about, but it's... - We convert to a way of life. - We convert to a working reality, I usually mention. So you can start with the similarities that way. (Zach) -When it comes to TVP members, discussing religion with possible new members how can you tell them to be an effective judge of their skill when it comes to that topic, because it seems they want to talk about it zealously. -Well it depends on how effective people are in regards to that, If you find that you are becoming argumentative than you are just trying to hold a position than the other person is trying to hold their position and you're not getting through to them. - Read the book, - 'The Best That Money Can't Buy.' - There are different chapters in there. - I was talking about religion specifically. - We talk about (?). - Right, you could get some tools from the book, you know, 'The Best That Money Can't Buy', there's a lot of tools in that, dealing with religion as well. - Could I make just a little comment there, please? (R Meadows) - Any time. -Okay. One thing that I have noticed is that sometimes people get rather (?) to start ridiculing people who believe in religion and whilst I understand it could be tempting sometimes because we think we know so much now, you know, "we are awaken" and all this kind of thing, we have to be very careful not to offend people, And I think sometimes the tone that people take with religious believers is offensive so I think we really have to watch the way that we answer these kind of questions so as not to offend anybody, because we are only going to close their ears if we do that. -I would like to add to that also. You can find lots of (?) with religious people if they would like to implement the paradise on earth, and the compassion that most religion propagates and hold in their teachings. and you could just get with this similarities and maybe put aside some arguments before you can implement the Resource Based Economy, when people will start to live together, then we can explore other things. (R Meadows) -Right, all that is useful. -Okay, I just see, I see a high priority educating TVP planers to be cautious and do it right. -Yes, you just use the Bible, take the quotes out of the Bible which say that we all work together. If the Lord created the Earth for everyone, then we ought to take good care of it, and one another, because all people need the same thing clean air, clean water, food, a relevant education. - We'll make sure that everybody gets that. - Yes. And if that isn't good enough, I don't know what religion is. -And you can use their own tools, you know there's a lot in the Bible, like "I will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven", you can use those. -There are no money, no business in Heaven, tell them that. -There's no money, no business in Heaven, no private property, and so I would say The Venus Project is the nearest thing to interpreting religion into the Brotherhood of Humanity -You can use their own tools like that from the Bible to show them what it could really mean on Earth and what can we achieve what religion talks about. So, you can practice it like that way as well without hitting them on their religion, but expanding what that might mean. Okay, I guess will wrap it for today, we really appreciate all your help, everyone, and all your comments and question and we'll talk with you next week. Jacque's got a mouthful of apple pie, so he says thanks too. (Sue) -Good appetite, Jacque. -Yes, enjoy.

Video Details

Duration: 1 hour, 23 minutes and 23 seconds
Year: 2012
Country: United States
Language: English
Producer: The Venus Project
Director: The Venus Project
Views: 6
Posted by: ltiofficial on Feb 18, 2016

TVP Teamspeak Q&A Seminar - Expectations of Predictability (part 2) - 2012-05-27

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