Entrevista exclusiva con el juez español Baltasar Garzón (Parte 2 de 2)

Judge Baltasar Garzón, who first held Augusto Pinochet accountable, after his 17 years of brutal rule in Chile. When Augusto Pinochet went to Britain in the late '90s for a doctor's appointment, Judge Baltasar Garzón, from Spain, had him indicted. And it was because of that indictment that Augusto Pinochet was held in Britain for a year, until eventually allowed to go home. Now Baltasar Garzón, Judge Garzón, faces his own trial, as he has been taken off the bench after crusading on many different issues, including the indictment of Osama bin Laden and other al-Qaeda operatives in 2003. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan Gonzalez. Well, Judge Garzón, I’d like to ask you about another case that you were involved with, which was the investigation of the "dirty war" that occurred against Basque separatists under a Socialist government, the government of Felipe Gonzalez, in Spain. And you—many say that you were responsible for the fall of that government as a result of what you uncovered. Could you talk about what you found? And interestingly now, Felipe Gonzalez is supporting you and saying that what is happening to you is unjust. Yo creo que nunca sería culpa mía la pérdida de unas elecciones, sino de que los ciudadanos hayan decido no apoyar esa acción política. Lo que yo hice fue investigar crímenes cometidos contra personas a las que se acusaba de terrorismo. Los límites del estado de derecho no pueden rebasarse por nadie porque la ley es igual para todos. Varios altos responsables del gobierno socialista de la época resultaron implicados y un Tribunal Supremos los condenó. Creo que con ello la democracia y el estado de derecho se fortaleció, en su lucha contra el terrorismo. I wanted to go back to Chile. The family of the former Chilean president, Salvador Allende, asked last month for his body to be exhumed to help determine the cause of his 1973 death. President Allende was overthrown in a U.S.-backed coup, September 11th, 1973. The official cause of death on that day in the palace was listed as suicide, but it’s long been speculated he was assassinated by the forces of General Augusto Pinochet. Allende’s daughter, Isabel Allende, spoke to the media. We requested the exhumation and autopsy. I think it’s the most rigorous and definitive proof to clear up the causes of his death, and we think this is going to be tremendously important. That was the daughter of Salvador Allende, Isabel Allende, not to be confused with the great writer who is his niece. What do you say about the calling for the exhumation and the investigation of whether this was assassination or whether he took his own life as the Augusto Pinochet forces moved into the palace? En todo caso lo que se investigó en su momento fue la acción criminal llevada a cabo contra Salvador Allende y todos aquellos que en democracia estaban ejerciendo sus funciones. Lo de menos es cual fuera la causa inmediata de la muerte de Salvador Allende. Hubo un golpe de estado y hubo crímenes masivos. Por esos crímenes se investigó a Augusto Pinochet y se le detuvo en Londres. So where do you stand right now, Judge Garzón? You’ve been suspended. You face trial. You face prison for many years. I am provisionally suspended in my function, jurisdictional function. But I hope the trial against me, that we will, in the next month, I think—but it’s very complicated for me, my actual situation, because I cannot to investigate, to work in Spain. But I work right now in La Haya, in the International Criminal Court, with the prosecutor. But it’s not my destination. I hope the resolution, it will be proximally. Some of your—you have many people who are passionately supporters of yours, as well as very strong critics, including among your colleagues on the bench. Several major judges in Spain have accused you of basically being a media personality trying to grab attention and really overstepping your responsibilities as a judge. How do you answer those in the judicial community who have criticized you in the past? Lo que es trascendente son los casos en los que yo he participado. Cualquier juez que hubiera hecho lo mismo, su nombre sería conocido. Eso no es malo. Lo malo es impedir esas investigaciones. Y que las víctimas queden desamparadas. Es cierto que mi personalidad imprime una pasión añadida pero creo que eso es propio de cualquier juez, debería de ser propio de cualquier juez. Lo único que he hecho es trabajar y lo voy a seguir haciendo. Y no me preocupa demasiado las críticas aunque las tenga en cuenta And even if you’re absolved of the charges, do you think you will be able to continue to function as a judge in Spain? Puedo hacerlo, lo que ocurre es que ahora temporalmente voy a desarrollar una labor bastante interesante en Colombia. Durante un tiempo voy a trabajar con la OEA en apoyo del proceso de paz y en apoyo de las víctimas del conflicto armado colombiano, para desarrollar mecanismos de justicia transicional. In terms of having—achieving a peace between the FARC and the government? Para desbloquear, contribuir a desbloquear la Ley de Justicia y Paz que supuso la desmovilización de casi 50.000 personas, para que se pueda juzgar y las víctimas puedan resarcirse. I wanted to, as we wrap up, talk again about universal jurisdiction, what this means, using the Spanish courts to hold tyrants accountable, wherever they may be. The Spanish government is now curtailing this, saying they don’t want to use universal jurisdiction. You have been a crusader for this. Lawyers around the world have looked at what you’re doing, seeing if it’s possible in their own countries. Yet your own government is cracking down on this. Will you be able, if you are cleared of all the charges and can go back to work, to continue to hold international torturers, tyrants, accountable? Si, sin lugar a dudas. Pero no solo yo sino cualquier juez, lo puede y lo debe de hacer. Ningún gobierno está tranquilo con la aplicación del Principio de Jurisdicción Universal. Yo creo que se equivocan porque el Principio de Jurisdicción Universal es un principio que permite luchar contra la impunidad y por tanto proteger a los ciudadanos. Y de alguna forma es el escenario final, cuando el propio país no quiere investigar, o no puede investigar. Were you surprised by some of the WikiLeaks revelations that indicated an extraordinary degree of pressure by the United States government on the judiciary and the government of Spain on cases affecting the United States? Si me sorprendió. Pero el que quiere que lo presionen, le presionan. Si te niegas a la presión la presión no vale. En este caso la justicia mantuvo su situación y el propio tribunal ha confirmado mi decisión, mi decisión sobre Guantánamo We have just 10 seconds. Short answer. Your assessment of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? En la guerra de Irak, la guerra de Irak fue una guerra ilegal, fue una guerra injusta. Y creo que la acción en Afganistán, estando hoy día justificada, se tardó mucho tiempo en comprobar que además había otros temas pendientes. Judge Baltasar Garzón, thank you so much for being with us. I'm Amy Goodman with Juan González