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Interview: Jacque Fresco with Charlie Veitch - This Shit's Got To Go!

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THIS SHIT'S GOT TO GO! An interview with Jacque Fresco The Venus Project [Interviewer] How do we go about changing someone's nature? [Jacque] OK. First of all, as a kid, when I was about 15 or 16, I asked all those questions you're asking now. So I said to myself "How can you make a world of uniformity, bring all the nations together? Their social customs, their concept of God is different. They may have 10 wives. You believe in one. How do you bring them together?" And I said the most difficult three words of my life: "I don't know." I really didn't know. I thought "How can I do that?" So I said "Don't try to design a global civilization until you understand what you're talking about." So I got confused. I got into my own-... Thinking is talking to yourself. If I say "I'll see you Saturday." [you think] "I have to take the kids in..." [then] "I can't see you." So, it's talking to yourself, it's nothing magical. So I talked to myself and I said "How do you know your system will work? It sounds good on paper. You sound like (this is my own language) a Utopian." So, I got a book from the library years ago and it was called '125 Utopias and Why They Failed'. To me, that was very important to read. And I read that book, and I came up with something slightly different. I felt that- I had in my day a thing called a Victrola. You wind it up and the record would play. And I was thinking within those terms and my age (I'm 94), I've seen so many changes that I couldn't accept the notion of Utopia. If I designed a very good city that's the best I know up to now, but I know that that new city would be a straight-jacket to the kids of the future. They'll design their own cities. So, if you made a statue of me in front of that city, you hold back the future. If you have a laptop, which I'm sure you may have... A laptop is not the best that can be. It's the best we know of up to now. Ten years from now the laptop will be smaller, lighter, faster, everything. You can't freeze anything, or you can't use the word Utopia because it assumes you've done the ideal civilization. And to me that's ridiculous. Anything I design can be surpassed. Even in the history of my own work, I keep changing things. I have no fixed notions. - All the visions of The Venus Project I've seen, they look beautiful. They are stunningly well-designed worlds. But it seems like a lot of people that I've spoken to, not yourself yet, I'm speaking to you now, they see a world without greed, without fear, without murder, without governments, without police forces, without investment bankers-... - How do attain that if there is such a thing as jealousy? Even a thing like that. - Or terrorism? Someone might want to blow up. - Sure. I met many different people in my travels, and I try to explain what jealousy is. See, they don't define their terms. If you ask a particular person, "What [are] your conclusions now, in life, that you're 70 years old?" He says "Well, I'm a nature lover. I believe in letting nature alone. I think nature is a wonderful thing." I say "You mean you like hurricanes, earthquakes, which kill thousands of people?" That's nature too! Being ruthlessly honest, there are some aspects of nature that preserve life and some that are dangerous. A rattlesnake is natural. A cobra is natural. And an earthquake is natural. And meteors falling on the earth is natural. So, I'm not a nature accepter. There's some aspects of nature I like, other aspects are detrimental to human beings. So, when I meet a person who says "I'm a nature lover," I say "What do you mean by that?" Another person says "I'm spiritual." I'm not sure what that means, so I say "What do you mean by that? You mean you have no locks on your door? If you see a hungry person, you bring them into your house and feed them?" "Oh, no!" I know that what they're talking about, they have no real clarification of the use of words. And then I begin to get confused, because I want to know what the other person means when he says "I believe in social design. I'm a socialist." Or I meet another guy who says "I'm a communist." I said "How will you prevent corruption under communism?" "I don't know." I say "How will you house the millions of people who need housing?" "I don't know." Then just say "Tell me more about what you believe in." They have no information. Then I [met] a friend of mine or an acquaintance, not really that close, and he told me he was running for political office. I said "I'm so sorry to hear that." He didn't get the message. Of course he didn't get it. He said "What do you mean by that?" I said "As politicians..." (I've met many of them in Washington) and I said "How would you stop cars from hitting each other?" "I don't know." "How would you increase the agricultural yield without exhausting the soil?" "I don't know." "Well, what do you know about the physical world?" "Well, I guess I'm not technical." I said "You understand that everything we have today - your cameras, your car, your airplanes, your communications - are all technical." And a politician is not a technician. I don't know what they can do. I really don't know what they understand. I said "When you fly in a commercial airliner today, you don't have to call the pilot and say 'You've been flying at an angle. Straighten up!'" He knows his business. The navigator knows how to get to where you're going. And it's all done by some branch of technology. So, is technology the answer? No. It has more answers than non-technology. "Be good. Be kind." What do you mean by that? So to me it means that everyone should have access to a relevant education. All people all over the world need clean air, clean water, arable land, and a relevant education. Relevant means no advertising, no lawyers, no businessmen, no investment bankers, people that have the ability to make food grow, take care of physical injury; those are the real people. I don't know of any other kind of people. But there are people called philosophers, which sit back and meditate on their navel, or go into a room and free their mind of all kinds of thought, and come up with wonderful answers: "What is needed in the world is peace and harmony." "How do you attain that?" "I don't know." I say "You don't have a method of solving a problem." They say "I don't know what you're talking about, Jacque." So I said "Well, if I had anything to do with it (with the running of a nation) I would take down signs 'Drive Carefully, Slippery When Wet'. I'd put abrasive in the highway so it's not slippery when wet. There's other signs: 'School District. 14 mph'. The power output [of the car] would be 14 mph. So you can step on the gas all you want to. And it says 'Dangerous. School children crossing'. I designed a gadget that looks like this, and when a kid presses the button to cross the street, he can't go across until the red light goes on and the pavement turns up like that, like a comb. So no car can hit a kid. That's how I say I care. I don't know what it means "I believe in peace and harmony and goodwill." I understand the language, but I know it has no backup. So the Venus Project differs from other projects in that when I said to myself "How are you going to change people?" I said "I didn't know." So I joined the Ku Klux Klan. Did you know about that? - No I didn't. - In Miami. And I dissolved it in a month and a half. There were 32 members including the head guy. After that I joined the White Citizen's Council. They hate foreigners. So I joined by identification, so that I identified with them. But I always worked on their leader, and I dissolved it in one month alone. Then when I came back to New York from California, I asked a lot of people "Well, who are the most backward people in the area?" And they said the Arabs. They said they still believed the earth is flat. So I said to them ... I said to myself "I'm going to see if I can dissolve that group." But before I did, I found out who the leader was. His name was Elbaz. I called him on the phone. I said "Elbaz, can I come and talk to you?" I know his dialect. He said "You are Arab?" That's the way he spoke. I said "Eah." It means "yes" in Arabic. I speak many little bits of language: German, French, a little bit. So, what I did, is I asked Elbaz if I can see him. He said "From where your father he born?" I said "Lebanon." He said "Come and saw me." Means, come and see me. So he said to me, when I got to see him, alone, he said "You believe the world he round? I said "Yes." He went "Tsk-tsk tsk." In his country, that means that's ridiculous. Then he held his hand up like this and he pointed to his head. I'm telling you exactly what he did. He said "If the world he round, man fall me down here. All the water, he fall me down from the world." So he said to me "You saw what I'm telling you?" I said "Eah." So I gave him my balloon (I brought the balloon there) and I rubbed it with fur real fast. And I put some corn flakes in his hand and told him to hold his hand ten inches away from the balloon. Do you know what happens with corn flakes if you rub it with fur? - I don't. - Electrostatically, they move up and adhere to the balloon. It's called static electricity. So his jaw hit the pavement after the corn flakes went all over the balloon. - And didn't fall off. - He said "World, he magnet?" I said "Eah!" "Aah!" And he explained that to all the others. It took an hour and a half, and I turned them around. ... You don't turn people around with logic. It doesn't work at all. - Evidence is what they like. - Well, for him, what he considers evidence. Not what I consider evidence. Then I thought, in the Bible it said "Honor thy father and mother." My mother was a racist and a bigot. She hated foreigners, Japanese, blacks, and I brought a Japanese kid home one day. She said "I don't want that kind around." So I used reason, you know, as a dummy. I was a kid; I thought reason is the bridge. It didn't work at all. So I said "If you can't get to your mother you can't change the world!" Do you want to know how I changed the Klan and my mother? I befriended a guy named Lou Merlin, who was head of the Klan in Miami, that group. And he had a war surplus store. Do you know what that is? -Yeah, yeah, Army Navy store. - Yeah. So I used to buy lenses. And he said "What do you do with this stuff you buy?" I said "Lou, you're welcome to come to my lab and see what I do with it." And I did different optical devices. And he said "You're a smart guy. What do you think of the Klan?" I said "It's a great organization but it doesn't go far enough." See, if you attack, it doesn't work. He said "What do you mean, doesn't go far enough?" I said "Lou-..." After he visited my lab he respected me. And here's what he said. "Will you come on down to the Klan and talk to our boys about what you're doing?" I said "Lou, they wouldn't listen to me, you know." He said "I'll get them to listen to you. You're a smart guy." I said "Lou, if you can do that, that'd be fine." So he said "I want you to listen to this here Jacque. He knows what he's talking about." Because he was impressed by things I showed him. I can tell you what I showed him too, later on if you want to know. Anyway, he said to me (after I talked to his guys a little while) I tried to talk to them about animal training because they're interested in dogs. They hunt a lot. So I showed them some films I did on a bunch of animals that I had trained that sit at a table, and I bring food there (it's real) and they eat it. And I said "Before I worked on animals, I worked on insects." I'd paint formic acid on a tin can, put an ant on it and the ant would follow the formic acid. He'd [the ant] never say "Wait a while, I've been here before!" He'd never walk off, unless I painted the formic acid off the can. And then I know that most insects respond to sounds, chemicals, light. Then I worked on animals. My greatest difficulty was snakes. In conditioning snakes, I didn't even know how to start. This was when I was a kid. So, what I did is I put a black and brown mouse in with the snake, and the snake would center his head and grab the mouse, and you'd see the hind legs kicking. And I was wondering how he swallowed it. The teeth have back grate and they move up and back, shoving it down the throat. He didn't swallow. Then I wanted him not to bother the white mouse. So I put a white mouse in there and I put a glass partition between the white mouse and the snake. And he'd center his head on the white mouse and hit the glass. And after 10 or 15 times, when the white mouse was anywhere within the area of the snake it wouldn't make an attempt. So I pulled the glass out then and the white mouse could go anywhere in that cage, but the snake would only eat the dark mouse. And the next thing I did is photograph the white mouse sitting on the snake's head. You know, going like this. And the snake would be moving around, never bothered the white mouse. - You conditioned the snake. - Yeah. Then I said "What about nature, like jealousy? Is that inborn? Is that an instinct? Or is it learned?" So I talked to a psychologist about it, he said "No, it's a natural thing, jealousy. It's all over the world, in every animal." I said "Give me an example." He said "Well, if I reach for my cat, the dog growls. But particularly if I put it on my lap and stroke it." So I said "Is that what you mean by jealousy?" He says "That's what I mean by jealousy. That's an operational definition." So I said "If it's instinctive I'm going to try to find out." So I would feed the dog a little bit of fresh liver, and then reach for the cat. And keep feeding the dog fresh liver, and then after 10 to 15 times, when I'd reach for the cat, the dog's tail would wag. So if it's inborn that wouldn't happen. The dog would still growl. So, I had to reject that. So I began to talk to scientists (mostly psychologists in the old days). And I said "Why do you adjust people to this system? It's unsane." That's what they do. They have to be stupid to do that. Because psychologists are brought up with a routine of behavior, and they are given the statistics that are not always accurate. And so, I began to do a lot of work myself. Now my grandfather changed me in certain ways. He said "Jacque, people came from all over the world to America and they brought the printing press, the Arabs brought algebra (that's the name of an Arab, Algebra) and the Arabs gave us mathematics and the zero. And different nations gave us the printing press, and the language (we speak butched English in America). So my grandfather said "If you love the earth, pledge allegiance to the Earth and everyone on it. If you pledge allegiance to any one nation, you're negating all the other people." And that made sense to me. My grandfather in other areas was not sane. He was unsane. He believed there are people who lived under the ground that looked like us that were replicas with chicken feet, webbed foot. So, there were certain areas of my grandfather's behavior that made sense. So, in school I refused to pledge allegiance to the flag. Apparently the teacher I had at that time didn't like that. She grabbed me by the ear, dragged me all the way down the hall to the principal's office. I was only about 14 then. And she said to the principal "He doesn't want to pledge allegiance to the flag." The principal looked at the teacher, said "You're excused, you can go back now." Then he put his arm around me. He said "Why don't you want to pledge allegiance? Everybody does." I said "Everybody once believed the Earth was flat. It doesn't make it flat." So he said "What do you think of American history?" I'm giving you the guts of what changed me. I said "Well, everybody in the history books says the right thing and does the right thing, and doesn't sound like real people. They make mistakes. They have errors in judgment. And they don't have any of that in the history book. Everybody looks right." So he said "Well, what do you think of the teaching we do in school?" I said "When a teacher says to a child 'That's wrong,' there's no information in that language for a child to work with. Or 'That's not what I told you.' There's no information in that." So he said "What is information?" I said "If a child spells cat with K, say 'You're very close.' Draw the two letters that are close and change the K to a C. But don't say 'that's wrong' because it has no info ..." He says "I'm going to have to call your mother in." So I said "Do what you have to do." So my mother comes in crying, the usual. "What did he do?" She's going on like that. And he says "He didn't do anything, but we really have no place for him in our schools." She said "Oh my God. What's going to happen to him?" He says "I don't think you have to worry about that because I'm going to take him to the bookstore and buy him whatever books he wants to read, and let him read what he wants to read in school. I'll rope off the area. And I want him to come to me once a week and tell me what he's reading and why he's reading that." I'll have to tell you a little bit about the other bits before I continue. Can I? - Yeah. Of course. We've got plenty of time. - Well, I wanted to know how airplanes fly, as a kid, on this thin substance. I could not understand it. So I asked my mother and father and my relatives. They had no information. So I finally went to the library and got out a book called 'The Wright Brothers.' And I was very anxious because for years I wanted to know. I opened that book with great anxiety, and it starts out "It was a sunny day in May and Mrs. Orville Wright was hanging clothing on the line." I didn't want to know that. That bothered me. And I had to go through the whole book with "sunny day in May." And near the end of the book they killed a pigeon. And they put wiring in its wings to keep them out there. And they moved the wings up and back to find the center of gravity, and launched it... That was information! And when I went back to school and I looked at the books, most of it was "sunny day in May." A lot of bullshit and little information. So I began to read and scratch the bullshit - the "sunny day in May" - and look for substance. So I was able to read more substance than "sunny day in May." Then ... he died in about a year and a half after he set that up, and they took away that privilege. So I played hooky. I didn't go to school for six weeks. One day I came home and the truant officer was sitting on my doorstep. He said "Are you Jacque Fresco?" I said "Yes." "You haven't been to school for a month." I said "Six weeks." He said "That's right." He said "What do you do when you're not in school?" I said "I go to the library and I read what I want to read. I go to the Museum of Science and Industry and look at what I want to look at." He said "Do you hang out in gangs? ...use drugs?" I said "No. I'm not interested in that." He asked me "What do you do at home?" I said "I have a little lab. It's not very elaborate." He said "Can I see it?" I said "Under a condition that you don't tell my mother who you are, because she would become hysterical." He said "I agree." I shook hands with him and I showed him my lab. Then he said "I can't say you're wrong, and you're not doing anything bad." He said "You can do me a favor if you want to." I said "What kind of favor?" He said "Show up Monday just to show that I did my job. Then you can play hooky all you want to." So I liked the guy. He was a nice guy and I did that and I never went back to school. I began to hitchhike toward California. Why? Because airplanes dropped pamphlets. They said "Come to California. There's lots of jobs." And I couldn't get a job. My father couldn't get a job. This is during the Depression. The banks failed. They paid off a new home-... They didn't pay it off. They made down payments and several payments. When the banks failed, they couldn't continue the payments. 15 million people in my area were sleeping in every empty lot. That was the beginning of social conscience. I looked at store windows, there were phonographs (you know, the old thing you wind up). There were all kinds of things available, but they didn't have money. They were good people. They made shacks. And at the same time I read there was going to be a Bonus March on Washington by the veterans of World War I. That's years after the war. The government promised soldiers 600 bucks but they didn't have the money at the time to give these millions of guys 600 bucks. So they marched on Washington with their uniforms, medals, crutches, wheelchairs, and they were sleeping in every empty lot around the capital. Well, I was a kid in Washington watching that. and General Douglas MacArthur (I don't know if you ever heard of him), he was a captain then. The Senate said "Get those guys out of here. It doesn't look good!" So he ordered them to leave, and they said "Not until we get our bonus." So he threw- had his troops- throw tear gas at them. And that bothered me, no end. - While they were tear gassing soldiers? - Yes. Tear gassing veterans! They wanted their bonus that the government promised them. And then I said to myself "This shit's got to go!" It would look very bad to me. Because there was stuff around. Farmers grew food, but people didn't have the money to buy it, so their crops were rotting away. And I noticed at that time - it was the Depression - (you'll have to take my word for it because you weren't around then) there were people up on soapboxes with an American flag and a Nazi flag, talking about the Nazi point of view. There were socialists, communists, Mankind United, all kinds of people talking of new ideas. It was the Depression that stimulated that, when they lost confidence in their elected leaders. - Kind of like we have now. - Yes. Exactly. So, I was standing in front of a communist speaking, and he said "Beat it, sonny!" Because I was just 16 or so, and they were all adults. No kids were interested in that. But I was standing there and he said "I told you to beat it." I said "I want to hear what you've got to say." He said "Why?" "Because I don't believe what the Democrats say about the Republicans and what the Republicans say about Democrats. I want to hear from a communist what communism is." He said "You can stay." An hour later he said to me... I said to him rather, "I want to ask you a thousand questions." He said "You have to go to the YCL." I said "What's that?" He said "Young Communist League." I said "Where are they?" He gave me an address, and I went there. And there were kids, boys and girls, 10 years to 17, and they were reading books like Dostoyevsky's 'Crime and Punishment.' The kids were not typical. They were different than normal. They were much brighter. And so, I waited until the meeting was over and I raised my hand and said "How are you going to prevent corruption when communism comes in? And how are you going to house the masses?" He said "Well, when that time comes we'll work on it." I said "Look. It sounds very humane. Let's start a technical branch of the communist party and work on mass housing." They said "You're a deviationist!" I said "What's that?" "You're deviating from the teachings of Marx!" I said "I'm trying to help! I'd help anybody." So he said "You'll have to leave, you're deviating from Marx." But the Vice President of the Young Communist League said "Let's hear him out," and they kicked us both out. This guy was dumb, I think, because I was only going to help anybody. Anyway, after they kicked us out, that was the time I hitchhiked to California. And this woman driving a car - descriptively she must have weighed over 300 pounds - brand new car. Big hat with cherries and feathers- that was normal when I was a kid. She opened the door part of the way. She said "Are you a Christian?" I said "What else?" She said "Get in." So she let me in the car and I fell asleep because I hadn't slept for days walking on the road. And she poked me in the ribs; she really did hurt me. She said "You're not sleeping in my car!" I said "What do you want me to do?" "I want you to sing all the way to Texas!" I said "What do you want me to sing?" "Jesus loves me, that I know, because the Bible tells me so." I had to sing all the way to Texas, but I realized that as a religious person, she didn't understand what she was reading. She didn't understand the Bible. When I got to California, I went to where the airplanes said there are jobs. And there were hundreds of people there, and the guy said "Will you work for eight cents an hour? Will you work for seven cents an hour?" and picked the low bidders, and that was very cruel to me. So, I hitchhiked to one of the aircraft factories and I was about ... nearly 18, and I said "I'd like a job." They said "Are you a draftsman? An engineer? Do you understand aerodynamics?" I said "No." They said "We can't hire you. You're not even a high school graduate!" I said "That's true." So I showed him my drawings. And he said "You're hired." I said "What do you want me to do?" "Just think up ideas." I said "What are your problems?" He said "Well, when a big plane lands..." (I'm giving you detail) the big tires sometimes cost ten thousand dollars a piece on a Ford Trimotor or a Condor, and the tires wear out fast. So I put vanes on the side of the wheel. When the landing gear- When you're in the air the wheel would turn, but the landing gear was retractable. When they straighten out, the wheels would turn by the vanes on the side. Everything I thought of belonged to that company. I worked there for some time. And the guy said "The first three weeks you were here Jacque, you made more contributions to the aircraft industry than in the history of aviation." That's the chief draftsman. And he said to me "How do you think up all these things?" I said "That's a long story." So he invited me to his home for dinner and I explained it. He said "I want you to meet the chief aerodynamicist." That's a guy that studies airflow over wings and around surfaces. He told him that I did not believe in the Bernoulli principle. Do you know what that is? - No. Air flowing over the top of the wing covers a greater distance and creates a partial vacuum. Two-thirds of the lift comes from the top of the wing, not the bottom. So I built a model wing to test that out. In order to deflect air up this way, you had to take a download in the wing. You understand? If air hits and gets deflected that way. If you hold... - Yeah. You would think it would push the wing down. Yeah. - That's a resultant. So you get nothing for nothing. I was telling Ford, the guy that hired me then, that I didn't accept the Bernoulli principle. He told that to the chief aerodynamicist and he came over and he said "You don't accept the Bernoulli principle?" I said "No. I only don't accept certain aspects of it." He said "I don't even want to talk to you!" and he walked away. Very famous guy, Dr. [Arthur L.] Klein. That's the first time I encountered a scientist that was unscientific. He should have said "What is it that you have against it?" If he were a scientist he should try to help me, if I were wrong. And so, I began to think "Gee, if a scientist behaves like that, then I mustn't honor scientists. I have to check them out, each one of them!" I said "That's a tough job." So I got into a field called General Semantics. The book is called 'Science and Sanity' by Alfred Korzybski. He began to tell me that words people use are not information. They're just names they get in school. And that book really made me aware of language, communication, so I began to study semantics. Followed by another book called 'Tyranny of Words' by Stuart Chase. That would help you if you're really interested in the history of language. So I got 'Mind in the Making' by James Harvey Robinson - how we get to be the way we are. And all of those books were based on experiment, not on sheer philosophy. So I became highly experimental. Following that, I was working on a certain airplane called the DB-7, Douglas Bomber 7. And I didn't work on the bombing mechanisms. They always asked me to. I said I don't know how to do that. Only safety devices for aircraft. And that plane had a tendency- I built a model of it, and put it in a spin tunnel, and it went into a spin right away. Instead of a diving spin, it was a flat spin. And the aerodynamics book said that most flat spins are fatal. The planes do not pull out. So I went to work on that problem, and showed Ford if you turned your wingtips this way, you can stop a flat spin. He said "Great! I'm going to take out a patent on it" in the name of Douglas Division of Northrop Aircraft. - Rather than in the name of Jacque Fresco. - Yeah! Everything you think of, whether you're home or not, is taken by the company you work for. And I thought that was unjust. I thought that was unfair. I never got an increase in pay or anything. Eventually, it went into a flat spin, and Ford said to me "We're in now!" We both were asked to resign. Do you understand? - Yeah. - Because the establishment would have been held responsible. So, I was looking for justice. I thought it was unfair. And then I realized there's no justice. That free enterprise ships things out because it costs less than making it here in America. That cigarettes kill people, but the government gets a good piece of the action. That means they didn't care for people. That was the evidence I had. And whiskey and all that junk food which goes out to people, and then the artificial contamination of plants by genetics without long-term testing. That was dangerous, to genetically alter a plant, where you could grow things organically, but never a mono-plant system. You have to have mixtures of different plants that reinforce one another. So I began to turn away from commercial agriculture, commercial science. You understand? I was interested in science, but they were owned by corporations. Scientists made nuclear weapons. A guy named Albert Einstein wrote a formula, and he helped. And Szilard and Oppenheimer worked on the atom bomb. And in the Bible there was something useful. It said "Cast ye not pearl before swine." Do you know what that means? - No. - Don't give people things that they're not ready to use intelligently. So technology became a lever of the armed forces and government, where they worked on killing machines, because they were patriotic. In Germany, the German scientists, some of them left, then most of them stayed, and made weapons. In Italy, the Catholic engineers made airplanes against America. In America the American Catholics made planes. And the priests used to dip their stick in holy water, and bless the airplanes and the war tanks. Whereas in the Bible it says "Thou shalt not kill! Love thine enemy. Turn the other cheek." - I always felt the irony of having priests and chaplains in the military was delicious irony. - I'm telling you my background, which I think you ought to know. I just didn't come up with these ideas. So the way I was raised, I was forced to encounter those things. - You've seen quite a few things in your 94 years. So, I need to ask, one of the boogeymen of the whole truth movement is David Rockefeller. You and him are the same age. What is the secret of your longevity? - There's no secret. There's just a lot of work to do. And I don't think in terms of eating to live. I eat. And I like certain foods and I dislike other food. But I was an organic vegetarian for years, until I read a book by Chundra Bose, which I never heard of. - Good name, Chunder. - Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose. He was from the Bose Institute in India. He went to the science convention in England, and he explained what he was doing, and they laughed him out. He was a plant physiologist. And years later some British scientists went to his lab and they found out what he was doing was so-... Because what he was doing was so radical. He took some living tissue and stretched it across two terminals. He put a candle underneath it to see if it could register pain. And he had an oscillo-... no oscilloscope in those days, but he had everything projected on a wall by a mirror, which moved very slightly. But on the wall, he got the patterns of an oscilloscope. And he said that copper wire showed the same reaction as living substance. So he had difficulty-... When a person says "What's the difference between life and non-life?" He said "Well the sun is inorganic, but without it all the plants would die and man eventually would die, and all the animals, and that's inorganic." So, he failed to separate the organic from the inorganic. They're all part of a common chain. And his book was so different that it changed me. And I saw cancer on rabbits, vegetarians, trees, dinosaur bones. I began to look into things. Then I said "What about the things that are beyond science?" - the physical, the metaphysical, the telekinesis. Do you know what that is? - Yes. Moving objects without touching them. And there's so many people that believed in that. I said "Jacque, why don't you check that out?" And I read about a guy named ... I forgot his name offhand but anyway... [Roxanne] Astoya. - Astoya! And he was from ... I think it was from India. And he said he never used a telephone. He has the power of telepathy. And he said he never used a telephone in his life; he can always read a human mind. So I said "If he can do that, the hell with science, what am I busting my butt for?" It takes a long time! So, we brought him- I and about 10 other people brought him from India to America. And I said "Sir, if you can read my mind just once, I will shout it from the highest towers and tell everybody about it." He says "Well I do it all the time." So I said to him "If you're going to read my mind, do you want a full moon? What are your major options?" He said "No, anytime." So I said "Do you want me to face the East or West?" I wanted to give him the best conditions. So he said "No, just think of something." I said "What if it's technical?" He said "Well, I won't use the terminology you use but I will describe the event." I said "That's fair enough." But before that, I noticed him working with people. He was talking to a woman about 78 years old and he said "There was a death in your family, either three months or the past three years." There's always a death in the family when you're 74 years old! So it seemed to me he was working with probability. You know what I mean? - The Astoya guy was ... - But that doesn't mean that he can't do that. - No. But he can't prove it. - So, let me tell you what I did. I pictured a little white mouse (due to my background) eating an elephant, not getting any larger, and walking out of the building. If there's telepathy, if he gave me that... - If he figured that out. - ...I'm convinced. - Yeah. - But he didn't give me an answer. So I felt maybe that didn't work that time. Maybe he could really do that. So I then pictured a carpenter's saw made of metal (can you picture that?) with two legs, and it walks into the forest like this. And a tree looks at the saw, and the tree cuts the saw in half! That's outside of probability. You know what I mean? If he got that, there's telepathy. He didn't get it. He didn't get anything I thought of. But he did, when a young girl came over... There's only six questions or so. Why don't I have as many dates as my sister? And he'd give a typical story, but he never did any real mind reading. He did work with probability. And when the girl leaned forward he was on the right track; she leaned back, he changed the subject. Then I met another couple that said they do telepathy every day, and had them come over in my home. And I said "Would you mind demonstrating it?" The guy said "No." He said "I want you to go from your own books. Bring out six or seven or ten movie actors, or ten presidents." And he said "Don't even whisper the names, just point." And I point to [Millard] Fillmore. This was the first time I ever met the guy. He said "Now you call this guy in England, Mr. Throkmore." Do you know this story? I called Mr. Throkmore in England. He said "I see a president with two puffs of hair on the side, and his name is [Millard] Fillmore." Then I pointed to a movie actor, and I think it was Cary Grant, if you know who he is. Anyway, I pointed it out. "Call this guy in New Jersey, Smithison." I called him. He says "I see a tall skinny actor, an Englishman named Cary Grant." Right away. That was the best I've seen up to then. Here's how it works. Before I went out to investigate that, I read everything I [could] on show business mental telepathy. Hundreds of books at the library, and you can get them at the Magician Society. So you're not qualified as an investigator unless you know something about the field first. Here's what I found out. He has a friend in England named Throkmore. If you asked Mr. Smith, he's got a list: Smith means Cary Grant. Johnson means this actor. The way he tells his presidents depends on the name you asked for. Do you understand that, or not? By the way, I want to tell you, there was a friend of mine who was an engineer and he said "There's a Reverend May Taylor in California that has a church called The Church of the Living Dead." That's the name. I didn't name it. So she goes through the whole audience. "You had a son killed, automobile accident, February the 8th." Right down, everybody in the audience. So I went to that church because if that's true, then my system is limited. So, I didn't sign the guest book. When you enter you can sign the guest book. That's what they do with a lot of telepathists, soothsayers - When you sign the guest book they say "Have a seat" and they go back to see if they got anything on you. You go to the hall of records in a small town. "You had a brother killed in an automobile accident February the 4th." And they build a record from the hall of records. So when you come in, they say "Will you sign the guest book?" The minute you sign it, they go back to see if they have information on you. So I just want to tell you why. So I didn't sign the guest book, and she went over everybody in the church and skipped over me, but that doesn't mean that she can't do that. So I asked 10 friends of mine to go to that church and sit separately but don't sign the guest book. I wanted to check around [to see] if she's real. And she skipped over those 10 people. So, what conclusions can I draw? You understand? Reverend May Taylor made millions. Okay? And I didn't like what I saw. Now, the guy that sent me there was sincere, but he'd never known how it was done. Then two priests came to my seminar, and they said to me "Jacque, the trouble with you is you want to work in the material world. There are things beyond the material world." So there was a woman in Palm Springs, California that had the power, they said, of telekinesis, moving things without touching them. I said "Call her and ask if I can come there." And the priests said "Yes" and they did call. And she said "Yes." I said "Ask her if I can check it out while it's happening, because I really want to know if it's true. I don't come as a skeptic trying to disprove it." I wanted to know. So she says "Of course." I went to the hall of records before I went to her house. Her father was a magician-... her husband rather. He died 10 years ago. Now, normal people will visit you for a while - when if your wife dies, the year you're alone - then they diminish the visits. That was statistical. I went to meet her. She was very pleasant, very polite, and she put this big vase on the table, and it started to move with the lights on and everything. No strings or anything. So I took a fountain pen I had and I held it near the table, and I got a 60 cycle hum. I peeled the veneer off and she had a bell buzzer upside down with four rubber shock mounts on it. The table was highly polished, slightly tilted. So I said "Father Dunn, Father Dempsey, come here and look." And she said to me "You son of a bitch, you get the hell out of here!" I said "I'm not your enemy. But if you tell these kids that are here today that you have special powers, they don't work on problems." See, if you pray and hope that it rains, you have to dig an irrigation ditch if you have a drought to help the plants grow. So I said to her that "I'm not your enemy. I understand why you're doing this. Various people come to see you. You're lonely. And when you do this you win approval and recognition." So she put her arms around me, and we were friends again. But I did not try to destroy her. And so I began to study as much metaphysics as I can: levitation, auras. So far, I've never found anything. Except in a book, a religious book. This guy had a halo and many witnesses to that. So I got another book called 'Anomalies and Curiosities in Medicine'. There are many skin diseases that are luminescent. Did you ever see luminescent waves? - Yeah, bio-luminescence, in the water. - So these skin diseases produce the luminescence and they thought they were holy men. They were just not qualified observers. - Correct. - So, a lot of that began to fall away in my background, so everything in my background became related to "Do you have an operational definition for the words you use?" So if I use words, I must have a visual picture of what those words are based on. And that did away with a lot of bullshit, just getting closer; I got that from semantics. Then I met semanticists, and asked them how they would change society. They didn't know. They had all the words worked out, but they had no operational definitions, that is, to make society better. Then I got to meet Italian kids in America. The Italian kids spoke like this: "Eh! Where you goin, ah? Maybe get a ride on your bike." Means "May I use your bike?" And then I met Irish kids and they'd say "There is a fine Irish lad, a good fellow from Dooblin!" And I noticed how their dialect reflected where they're coming from. And with the Southerners: "I'm gonna git me a nigger and kick his ass." Reflection, facial movements, everything. Then I noticed in France, they use their hands, "Viva la France! Viva la tour Eiffel!" The Eiffel Tower. And how their lips moved, facial expressions, exactly reflecting the culture they came from. But if they lived in Germany 10 years and came to America, they spoke with a German American accent. "Gott im Himmel" means God in heaven. And I noticed their facial expressions, language. And if they came from a certain area of Spain, with the high people in the court, one of them lisped when he spoke. And all that Spanish had lisps in it. - Yeah. They all came from... - So, I began to understand the impact of environment. They say "How do you know there [are] no genuine people that can sense things people can't sense?" So I would ask them. A person would come to me and says, "I belong to a new group, well educated: Higher Consciousness." I said "What is that?" "We're people [who] have evolved far beyond the average person." So I said "Are you a member?" The guy says "Yes." "Are you a member of the Higher Consciousness?" He said "Yes." I said "Where's your kidneys?" "I'm not sure." So I said "How fast is the blood moving in your veins and arteries?" "I don't know that." I said "What do you mean by higher consciousness?" If I can't check it out, how do I know what higher consciousness means? I know what he thinks it means. He doesn't. So anyway, I went to Trinidad because I read in a book that they could walk over red hot coals by state of mind. I said "Boy, if a man can do that ..." You put meat on fire, it cooks! And if you can have a state of mind where you can walk over red hot coals, I want to know about it. I went to Trinidad because there was an Indian colony, and they- I read that they can walk over red hot coals. So I went there, and they do burn these coals until they have an ash, a white ash, an inch and a half thick. And they don't walk over red hot coals. They move very fast over the ash. So I did that. I walked over the same thing. Then another guy came to me with a long needle, a crochet needle, pulled his skin together and ran it right through his face, too. He says "I don't feel pain." So I had a friend that was a doctor there. I said "This guy claims he can control his pulse rate, make it faster [or] slower, just by thinking." And the doctor said "He's doing that." So I searched under his arm. He had a cork ball. By pressing on the cork ball, it weakened his pulse. So I said "Here, doc." He said "Gee, I didn't see that!" I said "I know that. Here's how it's done." Do you understand? Before you try to investigate anything, read everything you can. Get information. Because it's information that ... is closer to reality. - Let's come back to the Venus Project. First of all, why did you name it 'The Venus Project'? - Oh, because I used to call it Sociocyberneering. - Sociocyberneering? - Yeah. Which means the application of science and technology to the betterment of all the world's people and the restoration of the environment. As long as you have separate nations, you're going to have trouble. - Why Venus? - Because later on, we went looking for land to build an experimental center. And I found some land in Venus that was not sprayed with poisons, toxics and things, on plants... - Venus, Florida? - Venus, Florida. - Ah, OK. [Roxanne] Nobody could pronounce the word "Sociocyberneering." And it was before "cyber" became well known and popular. So we named it The Venus Project. We lived in Venus, Florida. - How did you meet Peter Joseph? - Well, Peter Joseph ran Zeitgeist film, and a lot of people wrote him after the film; they said "Okay. What you say is interesting and informative, but what do you do about it? How can you change things?" He said he didn't know. Roxanne sent him a copy of the book I wrote called... It's about a world without money. - 'The Best That Money Can't Buy.' - Yes. It's about a world that doesn't use money. - He found it extremely significant. He came right out and started filming, and a year later he put out Zeitgeist Addendum. - He said from now on he's going to talk about The Venus Project. Because what he talked about was valid, but it didn't offer people any solutions. And all the Venus Project deals with is "how to" accomplish this, that, surgery, whatever. I designed thousands of surgical instruments, electronic and mechanical, safety devices for aircraft. - Why do so many people on the Internet worry that there's a connection between Aldous Huxley's 'Brave New World' and the Venus Project? - Because they never investigated the Venus Project. They think that it's machines that I want to use to run everything. That isn't true. Here's where they get that from. A pilot, when I was a kid, used to look out of an airplane and said "I'm about a mile high." Then some engineer invented Doppler radar. It goes down to the ground, back up and tells you, "You're 5,400 feet, 20 inches off the ground." No human could do that. So I'd like to substitute that for aviator's decisions as to height. I don't want the machine to take over. I just know I'd rather use that. And in San Francisco it gets so foggy, you can't see three feet in front of you. So they found out with infrared cameras, they can photograph the runway. So a pilot using infrared can see the runway if he uses infrared cyberscope. And that to me became extensional. Now, you have to understand that word. Technology to me is extensions of human attributes. Without a microscope, you can't see the way things are. You can only see the way they are relative to your receptors. But with a microscope (the first time I saw things under a microscope) what looked smooth looked like hills and valleys. So I said "What's it really like?" And the guy blew it up again, and it looked like slivers. So I said "But yeah, but what's it really like?" He said "That's a stupid question. It depends on your receptors." With an electron microscope, you can see particles floating around each other. I thought I was looking for truth! He said "Man can't see truth. There are radio waves here that you can't see, billions of bacteria on the table you can't see." He said "The search for truth is done by people that are sincere, but have very little technical knowledge." So, my vocabulary began to change and my attitude about a truth seeker. In order to be a truth seeker you had to know everything to know that which is true. So, it became a ridiculous thing. I met a lot of people and read a lot of articles about a young lady that was about to get in an airplane, she was about 16. She said something came over [her], she doesn't know what. But she didn't get in that plane and it took off, nosed down, and 150 people died. And she said "Jesus saved me." So she was going to speak at the Hollywood Presbyterian Church. This was 40 years ago. So I went there. And she was telling the congregation how Jesus saved her, all the feelings that came over her. And they all said "Amen! God bless you." So I walked right up to the pulpit. I was not a member of that church. I said "He didn't want you. He wanted the 150 people." That was just to show them, the little girl, that she was self-centered. I waited outside the church to see if it affected anybody. And they shook my hand. They said "I'm so sorry. I used to think that way too." Which is good. I didn't want anybody... Like if four of your kids were killed in a car accident, and one wasn't, the mother says "Jesus saved him." It's just where he was sitting in the car, in relation to the impact. You know what I mean? So I began to think "Why are there car accidents?" Why can't we put a proximity device on a car? So if a guy wanted to run into you, he couldn't. Because the proximity device would turn on your brakes. Then, about nine, ten months ago now, there was an experiment in information retention. And computers at that time could retain 1,000 trillion bits of information per second. No humans can do that. So I want to put machines in Washington connected to industry, production, agriculture, to get an overview of our capabilities, not to replace people that can do the job better. And not to control people, only monitor agriculture. Now, let me just tell you something I'm sure you don't know. From 3,000 miles up in space, with infrared cameras, if you photograph the Amazon jungle you'll see all the sick trees as red, in a definite pattern. So the Earth turns under the infrared camera, and we get a picture of the state of disease of plants all over the world. No human can do that! So those are the areas that we wish to automate. So we have a picture of the Earth, and we have a picture of the ocean, which comes out where it's contaminated in different colors. And we can see contamination, death of the reefs all over the world. No human can do that. [Roxanne] People think that they're going to be taken over by machines because they think of it in terms of this society, the monetary society, and I'd be scared shitless of machines taking over in this society. In fact, that's what's happening. No matter how much you don't want machines to do things, it doesn't make any difference. They're better than people, they're faster in factories, and they're going to take over people's jobs. But in this society they displace people and they hurt people. People use machines to subvert other people and hold them down and bomb them and kill them for resources. So, it's not the machines we should be weary of. It's the abuse and misuse of machines. And as long as we live within the monetary system, it's going to be more fascistic, the machines will be more hurtful. That's why we wanted to- that's why Jacque came up with the Resource-Based Economy because they wouldn't be used that way. They couldn't be used that way if you understood what the Resource-Based Economy would be. - How do we convince people that that's not-... - When I was about 17, I built a new kind of airplane. I bet I even tell you how I did it. I dropped a piece of balsa wood and it rotated, to the earth, accidentally. So I S-shaped it, and it rotated faster. So I designed two wings on an airplane that rotate, not a propeller, just rotated. And it went to the ground slowly, took off faster. And when I went to a model airplane meeting, most of the normal kids turned out normal airplanes. I never did. I worked alone. Some of them didn't fly, and I had to overcome the problems. And I didn't depend on approval from other kids. I depended on "I think I can solve this problem or that problem" and I learned to do that alone. But when I joined with other kids, they walked over and said "What the hell is that supposed to be!" They didn't say "That's an interesting type aircraft. Does it work?" They didn't do that. And they appeared to be abnormal to me, but made that way by associating with normal kids. Then I began to disassociate with normal kids, and began to read and experiment. But I was reinforced for it because when the teacher- when the principal roped off the back of the class and he let me read what I wanted to read, I was beaten up by normal kids. In the aircraft factory, when this guy Ford roped off an area and said "Just think up new things," I was beaten up by the engineers! Can you understand that? - Yeah. Because they don't want you to deviate from... - So I began to lose respect for education. I began to look into universities and they were better equipped than ever with the technical equipment. But the wars were getting worse! They could bomb whole cities with nuclear, and wipe out thousands of people in a few seconds. So I said "There's something wrong with our culture, obviously." - Very much so. - So, I went to work on the redesign of a culture; that's what made me start it. And then the problem is how do you change people [who] for years have been brought up-... generations. So I went back to China, and started to study Chinese. And I asked Chinese people, with correspondence, "Was there ever a Chinese baby born that spoke Chinese through the ... thousands of years of speaking Chinese?" They said "No. Always had to go to school." Then I began to question "Can people pass on experience to their young?" And I tried that in all languages. No American, or Englishman ever spoke English without going to school. And if you took a Filipino baby and brought it up in Italy, he speaks just like an Italian. So you can't pass on acquired characteristics. You could pass on double eyes or triple ears or multiple breasts, but you can't pass on what you've learned. If you're a mathematical genius, you can't pass that on to your kids. But if you have a way of reaching those kids, you can give them the ability to do that. Then if you're born with a better brain, say, more neurotransmitters-... Do you know what an idiot savant is? It's a guy that can tell you if you say "What happened in 1918, February the 2nd?" "That's the d-d-day the first battleship was ... honored." And they say "Gee, what a fantastic-..." The guy in other areas is an idiot! There were more neurotransmitters in a regional area of the brain. So, if you're born with a better brain than anybody, a better brain tissue, more neurotransmitters, you become a fascist faster. But the brain has no mechanism for telling you that which is relevant or irrelevant! That's based on experience. So I noticed when a baby fox sees a porcupine, it doesn't know what it is. It gets closer and closer, then it sniffs it and gets stuck, and stays away. And people say "You see? he learned." No, he was changed by the stick. They use the word "learn." An old man is walking around and says "Man will never fly," and a plane flies over. He says "I've changed my mind." He didn't change his mind. He was changed by events. - Say there are some very rich families or dynasties which do run things in international finance or politics, you've got the Kennedys, the Rockefellers, the Rothschilds, just to take the bigger examples. How? ... These people to me obviously love power! Like Chairman Mao, Mao Zedong... - I agree with you. - They love power! How would we convince them to have a more egalitarian society? - Here is how. I have a friend named Henry Berliner. He owned the Berliner-Joyce Aircraft factory. And during the Depression I went to see him, and the government agents came over and said "We're taking over the factory." He said "Why?" "You haven't paid taxes for three years on it." He said "I have no orders for airplanes. Take the fucking factory! It's not doing anything." And that's what happened in the States. Chevrolet failed. The banks failed. And we gave them, the same people that created the problem, money. We bailed them out with public funds, educational funds. And that tells you who runs the country. Obama did the same thing. So I'm telling you, that that will not change things, unless General Motors shows you a blueprint of a new car, better than the Toyota, better mileage, then if you bail them out, you've got a definite return. But if they show nothing, [and] you just bail them out, it means they're basically corrupt. Now, they already lost their factories, but we bailed them out. This time, there is no bailout. We've never had a condition where we went to war, where everybody didn't prosper. Now, you have wars all over the world and people aren't prospering. With nuclear war it would take three days; there's no time for profit. Do you understand? So you can't make any money. So I say, if they were to conscript you to serve in the Army (this is the way I talk to soldiers) they should conscript all the war industries so no one makes a buck out of war. Then it's real. I talk that way to soldiers. They say "Gee, that's right!" But if you say "You're just killing people," they just say "What are you? Some kind of a foreign agent?" Show them what's missing! And if you can't do it linguistically, do it with films. Now films can get to millions of people. I can't. I travel around the world. I may talk to maybe 500 people in an audience, and convince them. I think I know how to do that. But there's millions of people. And with movies you can get to millions of people in one month! So that's why I recommend movies. I would show movies of how I got to be the way I am. I would show movies with things that I really didn't talk to you about, that man cannot think or reason. All that's bullshit. And I'd show how the mind works, how we get to be creative, what creativity is. People write about it: "The man is very creative. They're a born genius." They have fantastic inheritance, or they're gifted. If a person's gifted, why give him a medal? ...if you're born a mathematician. You know what I mean? Why honor them? Why have a beauty contest? The girl didn't make her face. If it was made of mud and she shaped everything, you can give her a medal. But if she's born that way, why honor them? So anyway, I began to dissect the culture, all over the world, and they're all full of shit, all cultures. So it's easier to say Fresco is full of shit than all the world. - Why do people on the Internet associate Venus Project with the elite depopulation agenda? - Well, first of all, one world according to General Motors is their one world. According to the Federal Reserve and banking system, their idea of one world is with them in control. - Yeah! - See, that's the world that a lot of normal people don't know enough about the Venus Project, so they always liken what I say to communism or socialism or fascism. They've called me everything. Now, communism uses money. Communism has banks. It has armies, navies, prisons, police and government. We don't have any of those things. I'm trying to tell you fast what the difference is. - How do we make 7 billion people in the world see the same thing? When we went to war with the Nazi Germany, we sent Lindbergh to Germany first because he was honored as the first man to fly the ocean. I don't know if you know much about him but anyway, he came back and he had this to say to the Pentagon. "They're turning out 3,000 planes a month in Nazi Germany." We had 600 first-class fighting aircraft. That's all we had. So the government sent special agents to all the aircraft factories and said "Expand your factories to twice the size. We're going to be at war with Germany, Italy, Japan, and Spain. So we need an expansive production." So the aircraft factory owners had a board meeting, and they said "No. Because after the war we'll be stuck with big factories and no orders for airplanes. The answer is No!" So the government said "We'll pay for it." That's public funds. So they borrowed money from the banks, created this super debt with the public funds. After the war the American people owned 60 percent of American industry. And they gave it to them for three cents on the dollar, gave it back to industry. The public doesn't know that. It's not in our schoolbooks. As they long as they don't know- "What are you? Some kind of foreign agent?" They got mad at me. - I personally, Jacque, I think civil society, because it is untenable that will go on into the future, I think it will collapse. My vision of the future is we will all fight it out. There will be a giant World War III for better words, and God help us all. I don't believe in God, but God help us all. And I think we've gone, since the agricultural revolution, the wrong way. - I think what you're just saying has a higher basis of probability than the Venus Project, but I can't accept that. - But the reason why I think-... - You understand that? I can't accept that. So I'm going to do everything I can possibly do, and Roxanne, and the people who support it, to change people. If it fails, it fails. I'm not an idealist who thinks the Venus Project will be accepted by people. That I don't know. [Roxanne] It doesn't take everyone to make this happen. Most people want to know "What's in it for me?" And if things did collapse, if there was a group of people that can initiate the Venus Project in some way. And the Venus Project is about making things abundant and available for people. And if they see it's a higher standard of living for them, they would most likely accept it after things crash, and they can't eat, and they don't have any place to live and they have no job. - We all know that to make big change is so much easier after chaos. Like in hurricane Katrina; the companies went in there and privatized all the schools, no problem. [Roxanne] But if there wasn't a direction to work toward, if there isn't another alternative, and I don't see any other alternative out there that's updated with our science and technology for the benefit of people, not for the benefit of industries and corporations as it is today, but for the benefit of people and the well-being of the environment, then we're not going to make it. We'll turn right into fascism. So the more that people understand this direction, that there is another direction to work towards, and not people who misunderstand it and thinks it's the Rothschilds or one world government has the- It's funny to us, that it's because it's so much the opposite that they haven't looked into it at all. Then we might have some chance of some kind of sane sustainable future. - The Venus Project would seem appealing, but would people in the Venus Project be happy if I took all the people back into the jungle and lived away from your society? Like, is it possible for there to be two ways? - The jungle-... There are so many people on Earth today. I think you're trying to ask a deeper question than that. Who makes the decisions in the future? Who decides which way people ought to live? The carrying capacity of the environment. Do you know what that means? If the environment can support so many animals, if they alter the environment by earthquakes, so water goes into the ground, most animals will die. So we study the carrying capacity of the Earth and how many people do we have on it. And if we do use all the Earth's resources, can we wipe out poverty? Can we build hospitals? instead of digging up nickels and dimes for medical research. So far, up to now, we still have more than enough resources, even with all the waste and war. Now if you take the world cost of World War II - I'm talking about bombing England, bombing Germany, flattening it out, 400 ships on the bottom of the sea, thousands or millions of dead people - and just take the money that it cost to build to fight that war, you could have housed everybody on earth, wiped out the slums all over the world, build hospitals all over the world. There's something wrong with our culture. There's something wrong with all your bullshit mathematicians. They're always doing higher plane mathematics. That's why I don't like this guy in a wheelchair that is interested in particle behavior. If they were scientists [they'd say] "Why do people kill each other?" Get out of that god-damned field! I don't give a shit about whether the planet moves and oscillates in an orbit while the world is going to hell. - Yeah. Let's get our priorities right. ... Yeah. - Does that answer your question? - Yes it does. - There are problems now! And I don't want to go to the moon because when we start going to other planets, the next war will be out there. So I want people to learn to live together, and go out into space as a joint venture. Is that acceptable? - Yeah! - I'm very much against any single nation going out there. - Well, absolutely because it's just an act of-... - Where do we disagree? - We don't. [Laughter from audience] - If the three and a half billion Indian and Chinese want an American lifestyle, this planet will last maybe another 20 years. So we all know that the system maybe even ... needs to collapse? - I think you know more than they do. If you can impart that information... Some people know this much, some know that much. So they all don't really know, and they think that somehow our government looks after us. They have false beliefs. Or "God won't let it happen" [or] "Jesus will come down first." You know what I mean? So they have misinformation, and that divides us. So it's my job, when I talk to priests and ministers, I turn them around. I've changed many different ministers, to agnostics, not atheists. But I've changed them so they no longer believe that Jesus is going to come down in the clouds. And I tell them that those are little stories. If you ever watched me to talk to a group of people, I approach them differently. Knowing a little bit about their background, I change the tone. I don't, I don't talk to people to win approval. I talk to them, and my delivering what I know to be relevant, relatively so. And that I know that I myself in two years will be changed if I live that long. I'll change things. However I have no fixed notion of what the world ought to be. It's a constantly-... See these are called, the word for this type society is called "established." The society I talk about is called "emergent." It's never established. It's always undergoing change. To where? I don't know. Because the next 40 years with so many new inventions, I can't extrapolate. I can only to a limited extent. The Venus Project isn't perfect. It's just a hell of a lot better. And it's a start, working bringing the world together. I'd rather attempt that than go down in flames with society. - Why do so many people use the word "cult" when talking about the Venus Project? - Because they've never read the book. If they read the book and they say "Your society has insufficiencies," I say "Like what?" "Well, your beams aren't thick enough to hold up the building." Give me information! And they say "Well, you want to stop cars from hitting. How would you-...?" I know how to do that. I know how to put up houses automatically. I designed one of the earliest prefabricated houses. It was exhibited in Warner Brothers studios. They charged, I think it was $3 a piece for people just to look at it. And that money went to the Heart Fund. You can look it up. [Roxanne] Everything new was ridiculed and laughed at in the beginning. When the Wright Brothers were developing the plane, the scientists of the time... [Jacque] - established - right ... all of them were saying that man can't fly, but the Wright Brothers never read those books, so they went right ahead and built a flying machine. So we don't listen to what people say when they call it names and it can't happen, because if you listen to that, there'd be nothing new. - Do you think, Jacque, the power of love could ever overcome the love of power? - Well, that's a quote I've heard many times. First of all, the word "love" doesn't mean the same thing [to] different people. So I always ask a person "What do you mean by love?" I'm going to tell you what, that "love" will crash and a new word will come in. It's called extensionality. If you meet a person with six arms, you might say "Eh! What the hell is that?" He says "I can pet a dog, eat soup, scratch my back, and shake hands with my brother-in-law." But people don't do that. [They] think "Ehh!" - I know something I'd like to do with my spare hands. - Okay. So the point is, when people use the word "love" they use it in the context of the civilization and experience that they have. In the future, when people meet, a guy is going to see how extensional that person would be to him. And they will associate with one another because of extensionality. Meaning, if you met people that taught you how to grow food faster, healthier, how to live healthy, if you realize what they were doing, you would tend to associate with people that were extensional. The word "love" has so many different meanings to so many different people, we would rather use "extensionality." So when I told the aircraft industry you can break a flat spin by turning your wing tips into the wind, when I told them you can get airplane tires to turn, they loved it. But the tire companies didn't like it. - Of course not. Because it affected their sales. You'd need less tires! - That's why you have to concern yourself with many different aspects of the social system. - I think my personal role is to bring about chaos after the order. Do you have anything to say about that? For someone like me, I want to... - You don't have to worry about it. It's going to happen. - Yeah. I agree. - It's happening now all over the world. - Okay. Let's get more close and personal now, Jacque. We've got 15 minutes left on the battery. Do you have any religious or spiritual or esoteric or occult beliefs? - If I know what you mean by those words, I'll use the term extensionality. - Okay. It that like transhumanism? Am I understanding it correctly? - Yes. I'm interested in that. I believe that humans 500 years from now will be very different than we are. So different that we won't make the history books in the future. We're so low grade and primitive. - Many people would argue that we used to be... - I don't like what I'm saying, but that's the way it seems. You asked me. - Why do you not like what you're saying? - Well, because I wish they had been reasonable enough to make the transition without all the suffering. They're not. - So I hope this film puts many people- makes them calmer about you guys, because I agree: the world is fucked. Yeah. It's fucked. And the Venus Project offers something which we could do after it collapses. Are we both in agreement, Jacque? It needs to collapse. - People get mad and they say "Why do you wait for the collapse? Why don't you do it now?" - It's impossible to do it now. - I can't. [Roxanne] But we're working on it. We're not just sitting around waiting for the collapse. What's important now is to educate people: Let's do a positive alternative, a workable alternative. And it takes a lot of education because it is quite different in every area. - I asked you about any religious spiritual beliefs, you said "extensionality"? - Do you know what I mean by that? -Yeah. - A microscope is an extensional device. When I first met Einstein, I said "Do you believe in truth?" He said "What do you mean by truth?" I said "Well, this is smooth." And he put it under a microscope-... - So this is Einstein you've met? - Yes. And I said "Gee, is that really what it looks like?" He said "No." He we blew it up more, it looked like slivers. So he said "If you lock your frame, naked eye vision this is smooth. But to an insect this is rough. To a germ it's mountainous." So I said "What's it really like?" He said "That's a stupid question. We can't see what things are really like, only what they are to our receptors." I said "I didn't understand you." He said "Well, the dog can hear 30 thousand cycles in sound. The best humans can do is 22 ... thousand cycles per second." He said "Sharks can detect one ounce of blood at five miles in the sea away." No human can do that. He said "When you say humans are the highest evolved forms, you are projecting, Jacque." He said "There are many different animals... A chicken hawk can see a dime from the top of the Empire State [building]. A human being is a 3-foot ball. So, when you say we're the highest form, talk about what area." So when you talk about love, say "Do you love your mother? In what area?" I didn't like my mother's racial views, her prejudice, her bigotries, but she was nice to me. She was concerned. So, when you say "I'm in love with that person," that's never true. You like certain aspects about them. And once you learn that, that it's a fluctuating thing, you don't become confused. You understand? - Yeah. - All I'm talking about is extensionality in the referent that I use it. Okay? - What is consciousness to you, Jacque? - Well, people believe it's a degree of awareness: that animals don't say "I'm alive, I'm living on earth. How interesting!" And if you show a cannibal a wristwatch, open the back, he won't say "Look at those fantastic gears!" He can't. He doesn't even have the associations. - He doesn't care. - So when he looks at a watch, he grins. That's all he does. He says "Nice." And he'll wear it around his neck, never use it as a time piece. So people, depending on their background, do not see the world you see as you see it, because [of] lack of extensionality in their education. They're educated to serve the institutions they're brought up in. They're not educated to what you call think and reason, and go beyond that. We try to do that with every human being. And where we fail, we'll try to solve that problem. If I can't get to a person I say "I don't know how to get to them." I don't say "They're dumb." Say "I don't know how to reach them." Which makes me work harder. Okay? - Do you think ultimately everything will be okay for the human species? - I don't know. How do I know that? We may kill each other. And we may even build this beautiful world, and a meteor smash it. I don't know. Who the hell knows? I saved a kid from drowning once, and somebody said "It's a wonderful thing you did!" I said "That I don't know." Unless I see a picture of that kid's life thereafter. Because if he became Adolf Hitler, I'd say "I did a lousy thing." I don't know. How would I know? - Jacque, do you think there is one infinite consciousness and we're experiencing it subjectively? - Not at all. - No? - No. If you look at the history of mankind, you can see that it never existed. - Well, okay. So, if we look at the overall massive cosmological bigger picture, if you could sum up in maybe-... - I would believe that if a hurricane came, and went over a church or around it. Or if there's just children in a building and the hurricane went around that building, I'd say there is a cosmic consciousness. But hurricanes don't seem to respect anybody. And a tidal wave drowns thousands of people. An earthquake has buildings collapse on Jews, Swedes, Catholics. It doesn't seem to give a shit. - What makes a serial killer? - Okay. A guy's name was Albert Fish. They believe he ate 40 children. And the public wanted to tear him to pieces or burn him alive. They were very bitter about that. A psychiatrist named ... Wertham. His name was Wertham. He said "Don't kill him. I want to try to find out what made him that way, so we can avoid those conditions in the future." I liked that guy. And here is what he found. When Albert Fish was 8 years old, he was touching his private parts. His mother was an old time Baptist, good person. Came in and said "You are going to burn in hell touching that part of your body. That is satanic, and you will burn eternally." She scared the shit out of the kid. And the mother said at 2 in the morning he was screaming. As she went into the bedroom and he'd stuck needles in his genitals because he didn't want to go to hell. Can you understand? - I do understand. - Then he used to take minority kids into the woods and try to cut their genitals off to save them from hell. - I understand. - What do you think a soldier is? He's a guy that saw movies of Japanese raping women. That's called propaganda. Because the Japanese have as many rapists as we have. They're not all that different. But with propaganda you can make people hate Germans; call them Krauts, Sauerkrauts and that. Or the Japanese slanty-eyed bastards. Whatever it is that we hate, we manipulate. We make movies to get kids to enlist in the Army, showing medals, heroes. And I want you to know this. I worked for a guy named Ernst Udet. He was the head of the German Air force in World War I. I worked for him. I said "How did you shoot down 70 airplanes?" He said "It vas very easy." That's the way he spoke. He said "I would fly above the squadrons und look at the rookies." You know what that means? The amateur pilots that weren't good. "And I'd pick them off." - Predatory, yeah. That's how he did it. - Yeah. - When you are asking "How can you possibly do that?" He answered "Well, yeah, this is how." - Yeah. He told me. Same for Eddie Rickenbacker, American hero. He shot down about 65 planes. There's no other way you can do that! If you had equal abilities up there you might last through six or seven, but not 71 airplanes. You understand what I'm saying? - I do understand. - So to me, all the people that are heroes are all part of this sham. Okay? I'm not mad at them or angry at them. I understand them. If you are brought up in this world and you have a machine gun, and you kill 400 men enemies, they put a medal on you, five medals. - Yeah, you're not a mass murderer, you're not a serial killer, you're a hero! - Do you understand? There are no mass murderers, no serials, they're made by certain conditions. And if we don't know what those conditions are, hate substitutes for solutions. they get to be the way they are. And if you know how to change them, if you know the mechanisms of change, it takes- People say "How long would it take to change all the people on earth?" Given control of the broadcasting companies, movies and the media, it's three months. - Three months? - That's all. - That's probably quite true-... - Well we got that from the Army. I said "How do you take people out of church, kids, and make them killing machines?" We get a guy named Frank Capra. He made a movie called 'Why we Fight'. Make the Japanese look bad. Make the Germans look terrible. Make Spain look awful. - It works every time. - It works every time. How long did it take? Three months. So give me movie control, of television, radio, and it doesn't take that long, because the people that get the change, they change other people. - Absolutely. Designs by Jacque Fresco (c) 2011

Video Details

Duration: 1 hour, 29 minutes and 53 seconds
Country: United States
Language: English
Producer: IgorTVP
Director: IgorTVP
Views: 475
Posted by: ltiofficial on Jun 5, 2015

In this interview by Charlie Veitch, Jacque Fresco talks about his early years, how he became the way he is, about spirituality, about The Great Depression, about how he met Peter Joseph, and why this shit's got to go!

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