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Annotated captions of My Dinner with Andre in English

Last Modified By Time Content
redirete 01:03
01:05

[ Horn Honks ]

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01:15

<i>[ Shawn Narrating ] The life of a playwright is tough.</i>

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01:18

<i>It's not easy, as some people seem to think.</i>

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<i>You work hard writing plays, and nobody puts them on.</i>

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<i>You take up other lines of work to try to make a living-</i>

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<i>I became an actor-</i>

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<i>and people don't hire you.</i>

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<i>So you just spend your days doing the errands of your trade.</i>

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<i>Today I'd had to be up by 1 0.:00 in the morning...</i>

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<i>to make some important phone calls.</i>

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<i>Then I'd gone to the stationery store to buy envelopes. Then to the Xerox shop.</i>

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<i>There were dozens of things to do.</i>

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<i>By 5.:00 I'd finally made it to the post office...</i>

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<i>and mailed off several copies of my plays...</i>

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<i>meanwhile checking constantly with my answering service...</i>

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<i>to see if my agent had called with any acting work.</i>

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<i>In the morning, the mailbox had just been stuffed with bills.</i>

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<i>What was I supposed to do? How was I supposed to pay them?</i>

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<i>After all, I was already doing my best.</i>

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<i>I've lived in this city all my life.</i>

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<i>I grew up on the Upper East Side...</i>

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<i>and when I was 1 0 years old I was rich, I was an aristocrat...</i>

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<i>riding around in taxis, surrounded by comfort...</i>

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<i>and all I thought about was art and music.</i>

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<i>Now I'm 36, and all I think about is money.</i>

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<i>It was now 7.:00...</i>

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<i>and I would have liked nothing better than to go home and have my girlfriend Debby...</i>

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<i>cook me a nice, delicious dinner.</i>

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<i>But for the last several years our financial circumstances...</i>

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<i>have forced Debby to work three nights a week as a waitress.</i>

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<i>After all, somebody had to bring in a little money.</i>

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<i>So I was on my own.</i>

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<i>But the worst thing of all was that I'd been trapped by an odd series of circumstances...</i>

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<i>into agreeing to have dinner with a man I'd been avoiding literally for years.</i>

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<i>His name was Andr� Gregory.</i>

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<i>At one time he'd been a very close friend of mine...</i>

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<i>as well as my most valued colleague in the theater.</i>

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<i>In fact, he was the man who had first discovered me...</i>

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<i>and put one of my plays on the professional stage.</i>

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<i>When I'd known Andr�, he'd been at the height ofhis career as a theater director.</i>

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<i>The amazing work he did with his company, the Manhattan Project...</i>

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<i>had just stunned audiences throughout the world.</i>

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<i>But then something had happened to Andr�.</i>

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<i>He dropped out of the theater. He sort of disappeared.</i>

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<i>For months at a time, his family seemed only to know that he was traveling...</i>

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<i>in some odd place like Tibet...</i>

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<i>which was really weird because he loved his wife and children.</i>

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<i>He never used to like to leave home at all.</i>

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<i>Or else you'd hear that someone had met him at a party and he'd been telling people...</i>

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<i>that he talked with trees or something like that.</i>

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<i>Obviously, something terrible had happened to Andr�.</i>

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<i>** [ Piano.:LightJazz ]</i>

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<i>The whole idea of meeting him made me very nervous.</i>

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<i>I mean, I really wasn't up for that sort of thing.</i>

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<i>I had problems of my own. I mean, I couldn't help Andr�.</i>

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<i>Was I supposed to be a doctor, or what?</i>

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<i>** [ Piano Continues ]</i>

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- Hello. - Hello.

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- Here you go. - Thank you.

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05:01

- Yes, sir. - Ah, sir, my name is Wallace Shawn.

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I'm expected at the table of Andr� Gregory.

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That table will be a moment, sir.

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If you like, you may have a drink at the bar.

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[ Woman Laughing ]

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[ Chattering ]

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- Good evening, sir. - Uh, could I have a club soda, please?

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I'm sorry, sir. We only serve Source de Pavilion.

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Oh, that'd be fine, thank you.

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<i>When I'd called Andr�, and he'd suggested that we meet in this particular restaurant...</i>

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<i>I'd been rather surprised, because Andr�'s taste used to be very ascetic...</i>

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<i>even though people have always known that he had some money somewhere.</i>

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<i>I mean, how the hell else could he have been flying off to Asia and so on...</i>

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<i>and still have been supporting his family?</i>

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<i>The reason I was meeting Andr� was that an acquaintance of mine, George Grassfield...</i>

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<i>had called me and just insisted that I had to see him.</i>

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<i>Apparently, George had been walking his dog in an odd section of town the night before...</i>

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<i>and he'd suddenly come upon Andr�...</i>

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<i>leaning against a crumbling old building and sobbing.</i>

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<i>Andr� had explained to George that he'd just been watching...</i>

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<i>the Ingmar Bergman movie Autumn Sonata...</i>

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<i>about 25 blocks away...</i>

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<i>and he'd been seized by a fit of ungovernable crying...</i>

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<i>when the character played by Ingrid Bergman had said...</i>

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<i>''I could always live in my art, but never in my life. ''</i>

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<i>WallyI</i>

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- Wow. - My God.

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[ Wally Chuckling ]

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<i>[ Wally Narrating ] I remember, when I first started working with Andr�'s company...</i>

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<i>I couldn't get over the way the actors would hug when they greeted each other.</i>

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<i>''Wow. Now I'm really in the theater, '' I thought.</i>

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Well, you look terrific.

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<i>Well, I feel terrible. [ Laughing ]</i>

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[ Wally Laughing ]

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Good evening, sir. Nice to see you again.

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Thank you. Good evening. Ah, I think I'll have a spritzer, if I could.

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- Yes, sir. - Thank you.

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<i>[ Wally Narrating ] I was feeling incredibly nervous.</i>

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<i>I wasn't sure I could stick through an entire meal with him.</i>

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Great.

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<i>So we talked about this and that.</i>

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<i>He told me a few things aboutJerzy Grotowski...</i>

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<i>the great Polish theater director...</i>

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<i>who was a friend and almost like a kind of a guru of Andr�'s.</i>

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<i>- [ Indistinct Chattering ] - He'd also dropped out of the theater.</i>

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<i>Grotowski was a pretty unusual character himself.</i>

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<i>At one time, he'd been quite fat, then he'd lost an incredible amount of weight...</i>

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<i>and become very thin and grown a beard.</i>

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- Your table is ready, if you feel like sitting down. - Oh.

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- Oh. - Yes. Thank you.

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<i>[ Wally Narrating ] I was beginning to realize that the only way to make this evening bearable...</i>

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<i>would be to ask Andr� a few questions.</i>

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<i>Asking questions always relaxes me.</i>

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<i>In fact, I sometimes think that my secret profession...</i>

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<i>is that I'm a private investigator, a detective.</i>

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<i>I always enjoy finding out about people.</i>

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<i>Even if they're in absolute agony, I always find it very... interesting.</i>

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- By the way, is he still thin? - What?

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Grotowski. Is he still thin?

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Oh. [ Chuckles ] Absolutely.

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Oh, waiter? Uh, I think we can do without this.

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- Yes, sir. - Thank you.

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08:54

What about this one?

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[ Laughing ] Seven swimming shrimp.

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09:01

- Ready for your order? - Ah, yes.

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Uh, the Galuska - How - How do you prepare that?

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<i>[ Wally Narrating ] Andr� seemed to know an awful lot about the menu.</i>

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<i>- Dumpling with raisins, blanched almonds. - I didn't understand a word of it.</i>

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- Very good, I think. - Hmm.

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No, I - I think I'll have the Cailles aux Raisin, the quail.

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- Very good. - Oh, quails! I'll have that as well.

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- Two. - Great. - Great!

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And then I think, to begin with, the Terrine de Poissons.

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- Yes. - What is that?

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Uh, it's a sort of p�te - light, made of fish.

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- Does it have bones in it? - [ Chuckles ] No bones.

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<i>Perfectly safe.</i>

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Well, um -What is the, um, Bramborov� Pol�vka?

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It's a potato soup. It's quite delicious.

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<i>Oh, well, that's great. I'll have that.</i>

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<i>- Thank you very kindly. - Thank you very much.</i>

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Well. [ Laughing ]

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When was the last time that we saw each other?

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<i>[ Wally Narrating ] So we talked for a while about my writing and my acting...</i>

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<i>and about my girlfriend, Debby.</i>

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<i>And we talked about his wife, Chiquita, and his two children, Nicolas and Marina.</i>

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<i>[ Andr� Laughing ] And I'd stayed back in New York.</i>

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<i>[ Wally ] Finally, I got around to asking him what he'd been up to in the last few years.</i>

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Oh, God. I'm just dying to hear it.

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<i>- Really? - Really.</i>

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<i>At first, he seemed a little reluctant to go into it...</i>

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<i>so I just kept asking, and finally he started to answer.</i>

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...conference on paratheatrical work then.

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And, uh, this must have been about five years ago...

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and, uh, Grotowski and I were walking along Fifth Avenue and we were talking.

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You see, he'd invited me to come to teach that summer in Poland.

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You know, to teach a workshop to actors and directors and whatever.

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And I had told him that I didn't want to come, because, really, I had nothing left to teach.

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I had nothing left to say. I didn't know anything.

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I couldn't teach anything.

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Exercises meant nothing to me anymore.

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Working on scenes from plays seemed ridiculous.

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I - I didn't know what to do. I mean, I just couldn't do it.

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So he said, ''Why don't you tell me anything you'd like to have if you did a workshop for me.

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No matter how outrageous. And maybe I can give it to you.''

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So I said, ''Well, if you could give me...

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''40 Jewish women who speak neither English nor French -

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<i>''either women who've been in the theater for a long time and want to leave it...</i>

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''but don't know why...

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''or young women who love the theater, but have never seen a theater they could love.

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''And if these women could play the trumpet or the harp...

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and if I could work in a forest, I'd come.''

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[ Laughing ]

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A week later, or two weeks later, he called me from Poland.

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And he said, ''Well, 40 Jewish women - that's a little hard to find.''

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But he said, ''I do have 40 women. They all pretty much fit the definition.''

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And he said, ''I also have some very interesting men...

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''but you don't have to work with them.

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''These are all people who have in common the fact that they're questioning the theater.

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''They don't all play the trumpet or the harp, but they all play a musical instrument.

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And none of them speak English.''

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And he'd found me a forest, Wally.

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And the only inhabitants of this forest were some wild boar and a hermit.

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So that was an offer I couldn't refuse.

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<i>I had to go.</i>

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<i>So, I went to Poland, and it was this wonderful group of young men and women.</i>

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And the forest he had found us was absolutely magical.

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You know, it was a huge forest.

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I mean, the trees were so large...

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that four or five people linking their arms couldn't get their arms around the trees.

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<i>So we were camped out beside the ruins of this tiny little castle...</i>

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and we would eat around this great stone slab that served as a sort of a table.

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And our schedule was that usually we'd start work around sunset...

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and then generally we'd work until about 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning.

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And then, because the Poles love to sing and dance...

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we'd sing and dance until about 1 0:00 or 1 1 :00 in the morning.

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And then we'd have our food, which was generally bread,jam, cheese and tea.

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<i>And then we'd sleep from around noon to sunset.</i>

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Now, technically, of course -

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Technically, the situation is a very interesting one...

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because if you find yourself in a forest with a group of 40 people...

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who don't speak your language, then all your moorings are gone.

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What do you mean exactly?

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Well, what we'd do is just sit there and wait...

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for someone to have an impulse to do something.

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Now, in a way that's - that's something like a theatrical improvisation.

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I mean, you know, if you were a director working on a play by Chekhov...

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you might have the actors playing the mother, the son and the uncle...

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all sit around in a room and do a made-up scene that isn't in the play.

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For instance, you might say to them...

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''All right. Let's say that it's a rainy Sunday afternoon on Sorin's estate...

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and you're all trapped in the drawing room together.''

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And then everyone would improvise -

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saying and doing what their character might say and do in that circumstance.

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Except that in this type of improvisation - the kind we did in Poland -

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the theme is oneself.

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So, you follow the same law of improvisation...

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which is that you do whatever your impulse, as the character, tells you to do...

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but in this case, you are the character.

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<i>So there's no imaginary situation to hide behind...</i>

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<i>and there's no other person to hide behind.</i>

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What you're doing, in fact, is you're asking those same questions...

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that Stanislavsky said the actor should constantly ask himself as a character:

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Who am I? Why am I here?

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Where do I come from, and where am I going?

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But instead of applying them to a role, you apply them to yourself.

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- Hmm. - Or, to look at it a little differently...

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in a way, it's like going right back to childhood...

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where a group of children simply come into a room or are brought into a room -

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without toys - and begin to play.

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Grown-ups were learning how to play again.

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So, you would, uh, all sit together somewhere...

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and, uh, you would play in some way.

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- But what would you actually do? - Well, I could give you a good example.

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You see, we worked, uh, together for a week in the city...

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before we went off to our forest.

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And of course, Grotowski was there in the city too.

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I heard that every night, he conducted something called a beehive.

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I loved the sound of this beehive...

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so a night or two before we were supposed to go off to the country...

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I grabbed him by the collar, and I said, ''Listen, about this beehive.

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''You know, I'd kind of like to participate in one.

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Just instinctively I feel it would be something interesting.''

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And he said, ''Well, certainly. In fact, why don't you, with your group...

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lead the beehive instead of participating in one?''

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You know, I - [ Laughing ] I got very nervous, you know, and I said, ''Well, what is a beehive?''

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He said, ''Well, a beehive is...

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at 8:00 a hundred strangers come into a room.''

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I said, ''Yes?'' He said, ''Yes, and whatever happens is a beehive.''

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I said, ''Yes, but what am I supposed to do?'' He said, ''That's up to you.''

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I said, ''No, no. I really don't want to do this. I'll just participate.''

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And he said, ''No, no. You lead the beehive.''

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Well, I was terrified, Wally.

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I mean, in a way, I felt on stage.

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<i>I did it anyway.</i>

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God. Well, tell me about it.

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<i>You see, there was this song- I have a tape of it. I can play it for you one day.</i>

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And it's just unbelievably beautiful.

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You see, one of the women in our group knew a few fragments of this song of Saint Francis...

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and it's a song in which you thank God for your eyes...

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and you thank God for your heart, and you thank God for your friends...

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and you thank God for your life.

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And it, uh - It repeats itself over and over again.

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And this became our theme song.

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I really must play this thing for you one day...

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because you just can't believe that a group of people who don't know how to sing...

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could create something so beautiful.

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So, I decided that when the people arrived for the beehive...

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16:24

that our group would already be there singing this very beautiful song...

redirete 16:24
16:27

and that we would simply sing it over and over again.

redirete 16:28
16:32

One of the people decided to bring her very large teddy bear, you know.

redirete 16:32
16:34

Well, she's a little afraid of this event.

redirete 16:35
16:37

And somebody wanted to bring a - a sheet.

redirete 16:37
16:40

And somebody else wanted to bring a large bowl of water...

redirete 16:40
16:42

in case people got hot or thirsty.

redirete 16:42
16:44

And somebody suggested that we have candles -

redirete 16:44
16:49

that there be no artificial light, but candlelight.

redirete 16:49
16:51

And I remember watching people preparing for this evening.

redirete 16:51
16:53

Of course, there was no makeup, and there were no costumes...

redirete 16:54
16:56

but it was exactly the way that people prepare for a performance.

redirete 16:56
16:59

You know, people sort of taking off their jewelry and their watches...

redirete 17:00
17:03

and stowing it away and making sure it's all secure.

redirete 17:03
17:06

And then slowly people arrived, the way they would arrive at the theater-

redirete 17:06
17:09

in ones and twos and 1 0s and 1 5s and what have you.

redirete 17:09
17:12

And we were just sitting there, and we were singing this very beautiful song.

redirete 17:12
17:15

And people started to sit with us and started to learn the song.

redirete 17:15
17:20

<i>Now, there is, of course, as in any performance or improvisation...</i>

redirete 17:20
17:23

instinct for when things are gonna get boring.

redirete 17:23
17:27

So, at a certain point - It may have taken an hour to get there, an hour and a half-

redirete 17:27
17:31

I suddenly grabbed this teddy bear and threw it in the air...

redirete 17:31
17:35

at which 1 40 or 1 30 people suddenly exploded.

redirete 17:35
17:38

You know, it was like a - a Jackson Pollack painting, you know.

redirete 17:38
17:42

Human beings exploded out of this tight little circle that was singing the song.

redirete 17:42
17:45

And before I knew it, there were two circles, dancing, you know -

redirete 17:45
17:49

one dancing clockwise, the other dancing counterclockwise...

redirete 17:49
17:51

with this rhythm mostly from the waist down.

redirete 17:51
17:55

In other words, like an American Indian dance, with this thumping, persistent rhythm.

redirete 17:57
17:59

<i>[ People Chuckling ]</i>

redirete 18:00
18:03

Now, you could easily see, 'cause we're talking about group trance...

redirete 18:03
18:08

where the line between something like this and something like Hitler's Nuremberg rallies...

redirete 18:08
18:10

is, in a way, a very thin line.

redirete 18:12
18:17

Anyway, after about an hour of this wild, hypnotic dancing...

redirete 18:17
18:20

Grotowski and I found ourselves sitting opposite each other in the middle of this whole thing.

redirete 18:20
18:22

And we threw the teddy bear back and forth.

redirete 18:22
18:25

You know, on one level, you could say this is childish.

redirete 18:25
18:27

And I gave the teddy bear suck, suddenly, at my breast.

redirete 18:27
18:31

And then I threw the teddy bear to him, and he gave it suck at his breast.

redirete 18:31
18:33

And then the teddy bear was thrown up into the air again...

redirete 18:33
18:36

at which there was another explosion of form into... something.

redirete 18:37
18:39

And these -What was it like? You know, this is the -

redirete 18:39
18:43

There's something like a kaleidoscope, like a human kaleidoscope.

redirete 18:43
18:47

The evening was made up of shiftings of the kaleidoscope.

redirete 18:47
18:49

Now, the only other things that I remember...

redirete 18:50
18:51

other than constantly trying to guide this thing...

redirete 18:52
18:56

which was always involved with either movement, rhythm, repetition or song -

redirete 18:56
18:58

Or chanting, because, uh, two people in my group...

redirete 18:58
19:00

had brought musical instruments, a flute and a drum...

redirete 19:01
19:03

which, of course, are sacred instruments -

redirete 19:03
19:05

was that sometimes the room would break up...

redirete 19:05
19:09

into six or seven different things going on at once.

redirete 19:09
19:12

You know, six or seven different improvisations...

redirete 19:12
19:15

all of which seemed, in some way, related to each other.

redirete 19:16
19:19

It was - It was like a magnificent cobweb.

redirete 19:20
19:24

And at one point, I noticed that Grotowski was at the center of one group...

redirete 19:24
19:27

huddled around a bunch of candles that they'd gathered together.

redirete 19:27
19:31

And like a little child fascinated by fire...

redirete 19:31
19:35

I saw that he had his hand right in the flame and was holding it there.

redirete 19:35
19:38

And as I approached his group, I wondered if I could do it.

redirete 19:38
19:43

I put my left hand in the flame and I found I could hold it there for as long as I liked...

redirete 19:43
19:45

and there was no burn and no pain.

redirete 19:45
19:49

But when I tried to put my right hand in the flame, I couldn't hold it there for a second.

redirete 19:49
19:54

So Grotowski said, ''If it burns, try to change some little thing in yourself.''

redirete 19:54
19:58

And I tried to do that. Didn't work.

redirete 19:58
20:03

Then I remember a very, very beautiful procession with the sheet...

redirete 20:03
20:05

and there was somebody being carried below the sheet.

redirete 20:05
20:08

You know, the sheet was like some great biblical canopy.

redirete 20:08
20:13

And the entire group was weaving around the room and chanting.

redirete 20:14
20:17

And then at one point, people were dancing...

redirete 20:17
20:19

and I was dancing with a girl...

redirete 20:19
20:22

and suddenly our hands began vibrating near each other-

redirete 20:22
20:24

like this -vibrating, vibrating.

redirete 20:24
20:27

And we went down to our knees, and suddenly I was sobbing in her arms...

redirete 20:27
20:32

and she was sort of cradling me in her arms, and then she started to cry too.

redirete 20:32
20:34

And then we - then we just hugged each other for a moment.

redirete 20:34
20:38

And, uh, then we joined the dance again.

redirete 20:38
20:41

And then at a certain point, hours later...

redirete 20:41
20:44

we returned to the singing of the song of Saint Francis...

redirete 20:44
20:47

and that was the end of the beehive.

redirete 20:48
20:52

And then, again, when it was over, it was just like the theater after a performance.

redirete 20:52
20:56

You know, people sort of put on their earrings and their wristwatches...

redirete 20:56
20:58

and we went off to the railroad station...

redirete 20:58
21:02

to drink a lot of beer and have a good dinner.

redirete 21:02
21:05

Oh, and there was one girl, who wasn't in our group...

redirete 21:05
21:08

but who just wouldn't leave, so we took her along with us.

redirete 21:08
21:10

[ Chuckling ]

redirete 21:10
21:12

Huh.

redirete 21:17
21:21

God. Well, tell me some of the other things you did with your group.

redirete 21:21
21:24

<i>Well- Oh, I remember once when we were in the city...</i>

redirete 21:25
21:28

we tried doing an improvisation -you know, the kind that I used to do in New York.

redirete 21:28
21:30

Uh, everybody was supposed to be on an airplane...

redirete 21:31
21:33

and they've all learned from the pilot there's something wrong with the motor.

redirete 21:33
21:36

But what was unusual about this improvisation...

redirete 21:36
21:40

was that two people who participated in it... fell in love.

redirete 21:40
21:42

They've, in fact, married.

redirete 21:42
21:45

And when we were - Yeah, out of fear...

redirete 21:45
21:48

of being on this plane, they fell in love...

redirete 21:48
21:50

thinking they were going to die at any moment.

redirete 21:51
21:54

And when we went to the forest, these two disappeared...

redirete 21:54
21:57

because they understood the - the experiment so well...

redirete 21:57
22:01

that they realized that to go off together in the forest was much more important...

redirete 22:01
22:04

than any kind of experiment the group could do as a whole.

redirete 22:04
22:08

So, uh, about halfway through the week...

redirete 22:08
22:10

we stumbled into a clearing in the forest...

redirete 22:10
22:13

and the two of them were fast asleep in each other's arms.

redirete 22:13
22:16

It was around dawn, and we put flowers on them...

redirete 22:16
22:19

to let them know we'd been there, and then we crept away.

redirete 22:19
22:23

And then on the last day of our stay in the forest, these two showed up...

redirete 22:23
22:26

and they shook me by my hands, and they thanked me very much...

redirete 22:26
22:28

for the wonderful work they'd been able to do, you see.

redirete 22:29
22:32

- [ Laughs ] - They understood what it was about.

redirete 22:32
22:35

I mean, that, of course, poses the question of what was it about.

redirete 22:37
22:40

<i>But it has -has something to do with living.</i>

redirete 22:43
22:45

And then on the final day of our stay in the forest...

redirete 22:46
22:48

the whole group did something so wonderful for me, Wally.

redirete 22:48
22:50

They arranged a christening - a baptism - for me.

redirete 22:51
22:53

And they filled the castle with flowers.

redirete 22:53
22:55

And it was just a miracle of light...

redirete 22:55
22:59

because they had literally set up hundreds of candles and torches.

redirete 22:59
23:02

I mean, no church could have looked more beautiful.

redirete 23:02
23:05

There was a simple ceremony, and one of them played the role of my godmother...

redirete 23:06
23:08

and another played the role of my godfather.

redirete 23:08
23:11

And I was given a new name. They called me Yendrush.

redirete 23:11
23:15

And some of the people took it completely seriously...

redirete 23:15
23:17

and some of them found it funny.

redirete 23:17
23:20

But, uh, I really felt that I had a new name.

redirete 23:22
23:25

And then we had an enormous feast, with blueberries picked from the field...

redirete 23:26
23:28

and chocolate someone had gone a great distance to buy...

redirete 23:28
23:30

and raspberry soup and rabbit stew.

redirete 23:30
23:33

And we sang Polish songs and Greek songs...

redirete 23:33
23:36

and everybody danced for the rest of the night.

redirete 23:36
23:39

- Hmm. - Oh, I have a picture.

redirete 23:41
23:44

See, this was - Let's see.

redirete 23:45
23:48

Oh, yeah. This was me in the forest. See?

redirete 23:48
23:51

- God! - That's what I felt like.

redirete 23:52
23:54

[ Chuckling ]

redirete 23:54
23:56

- That's the state I was in. - God.

redirete 23:57
24:01

Yeah. I remember George, uh, told me he'd seen you around that time.

redirete 24:01
24:03

He said you looked like you'd come back from a war.

redirete 24:04
24:07

Yeah, I remember meeting him. He, uh - He asked me a lot of friendly questions.

redirete 24:07
24:09

I think I called you up, too, that summer, didn't I?

redirete 24:09
24:11

Huh.

redirete 24:11
24:14

I think I was out of town.

redirete 24:14
24:18

<i>Yeah, well, most people I met thought there was something wrong with me.</i>

redirete 24:18
24:21

They didn't say that, but I could tell that that was what they thought.

redirete 24:22
24:24

But...

redirete 24:24
24:28

you see, what I think I experienced... was...

redirete 24:29
24:31

for the first time in my life...

redirete 24:31
24:34

to know what it means to be truly alive.

redirete 24:34
24:36

Now, that's very frightening...

redirete 24:36
24:39

because with that comes an immediate awareness of death...

redirete 24:39
24:41

'cause they go hand in hand.

redirete 24:41
24:44

<i>You know, the kind of impulse that led to Walt Whitman, that led to Leaves of Grass.</i>

redirete 24:44
24:47

That feeling of being connected to everything...

redirete 24:47
24:49

means to also be connected to death.

redirete 24:49
24:51

And that's pretty scary.

redirete 24:51
24:56

But I really felt as if I were floating above the ground, not walking.

redirete 24:56
24:59

You know, and I could do things like go out to the highway...

redirete 24:59
25:03

and watch the lights go from red to green and think, ''How wonderful.''

redirete 25:03
25:06

- [ Wally Chuckles ] - And then one day, in the early fall...

redirete 25:06
25:09

I was out in the country, walking in a field...

redirete 25:09
25:12

<i>and I suddenly heard a voice say, ''Little Prince. ''</i>

redirete 25:12
25:15

<i>Of course, The Little Prince was a book that I always thought of...</i>

redirete 25:15
25:17

as disgusting, childish treacle.

redirete 25:17
25:20

But still, I thought, ''Well, you know, if a voice comes to me in a field'' -

redirete 25:20
25:23

This was the first voice I had ever heard.

redirete 25:23
25:25

Maybe I should go and read the book.

redirete 25:25
25:27

Now, that same morning I'd got a letter...

redirete 25:27
25:30

from a young woman who'd been in my group in Poland.

redirete 25:30
25:32

And in her letter she'd written, ''You have dominated me.''

redirete 25:32
25:34

You know, she spoke very awkward English.

redirete 25:34
25:37

So she'd gone to the dictionary, and she'd crossed out the word ''dominated''...

redirete 25:37
25:40

and she'd said, ''No. The correct word is 'tamed.'''

redirete 25:40
25:43

And then when I went to town and bought the book and started to read it...

redirete 25:44
25:48

I saw that ''taming'' was the most important word in the whole book.

redirete 25:48
25:52

By the end of the book, I was in tears, I was so moved by the story.

redirete 25:52
25:54

<i>And then I went and tried to write an answer to her letter...</i>

redirete 25:54
25:56

'cause she'd written me a very long letter.

redirete 25:56
26:00

But I just couldn't find the right words, so finally I took my hand...

redirete 26:00
26:03

I put it on a piece of paper, I outlined it with a pen...

redirete 26:03
26:06

and I wrote in the center something like, ''Your heart is in my hand.''

redirete 26:06
26:07

Something like that.

redirete 26:08
26:10

Then I went over to my brother's house to swim...

redirete 26:10
26:12

'cause he lives nearby in the country and he has a pool.

redirete 26:12
26:14

And he wasn't home. I went into his library...

redirete 26:14
26:17

<i>and he had bought at an auction the collected issues of Minotaure.</i>

redirete 26:17
26:22

You know, the surrealist magazine? Oh, it's a great, great surrealist magazine of the '20s and '30s.

redirete 26:22
26:25

And I never-You know, I consider myself a bit of a surrealist.

redirete 26:25
26:28

<i>I had never, ever seen a copy of Minotaure.</i>

redirete 26:28
26:30

And here they all were, bound, year after year.

redirete 26:30
26:33

So, at random, I picked one out, I opened it up...

redirete 26:34
26:37

and there was a full-page reproduction of the letter ''A''...

redirete 26:37
26:39

<i>from Tenniel's Alice In Wonderland.</i>

redirete 26:39
26:42

And I thought, that -Well, you know, it's been a day of coincidences...

redirete 26:43
26:45

<i>but that's not unusual that the surrealists would have been interested in Alice...</i>

redirete 26:45
26:47

<i>and I did a play of Alice.</i>

redirete 26:47
26:52

So at random, I opened to another page...

redirete 26:52
26:55

and there were four handprints.

redirete 26:55
26:58

One was Andr� Breton, another was Andr� Derain...

redirete 26:58
27:01

the third was Andr� - I've got it written down somewhere.

redirete 27:01
27:05

It's not Malraux. It's, like, someone - Another of the surrealists.

redirete 27:05
27:10

All A's, and the fourth was Antoine de Saint-Exup�ry...

redirete 27:10
27:12

<i>who wrote The Little Prince.</i>

redirete 27:12
27:15

And they'd shown these handprints to some kind of expert...

redirete 27:15
27:18

without saying whose hands they belonged to.

redirete 27:18
27:21

And under Exup�ry's, it said that he was an artist...

redirete 27:22
27:24

with very powerful eyes...

redirete 27:24
27:28

who was a tamer of wild animals.

redirete 27:28
27:30

I thought, ''This is incredible, you know.''

redirete 27:30
27:34

And I looked back to see when the issue came out.

redirete 27:34
27:38

It came out on the newsstands May 1 2, 1 934...

redirete 27:38
27:42

and I was born during the day of May 1 1 , 1 934.

redirete 27:43
27:48

<i>So, well, that's what started me on, uh, Saint-Exup�ry and The Little Prince.</i>

redirete 27:56
27:59

Now, of course today-

redirete 27:59
28:02

<i>today I think there's a very fascistic thing under The Little Prince.</i>

redirete 28:02
28:04

You know, I - Well, no, I think there's a kind of-

redirete 28:05
28:10

[ Laughing ] I think a kind of S.S. totalitarian sentimentality in there somewhere.

redirete 28:10
28:13

You know, there's something, you know - that -

redirete 28:13
28:15

that love of, um -

redirete 28:15
28:19

Well, that masculine love of a certain kind of oily muscle.

redirete 28:20
28:23

You know what I mean? I mean, I can't quite put my finger on it.

redirete 28:23
28:27

But I can just imagine some beautiful S.S. man...

redirete 28:27
28:29

<i>- loving The Little Prince. - [ Wally Laughs ]</i>

redirete 28:29
28:31

Now, I don't know why, but there's something wrong with it. It stinks.

redirete 28:31
28:34

[ High-pitched Laughing ]

redirete 28:37
28:42

<i>Well, didn't George tell me that you were gonna do a play that was based on The Little Prince?</i>

redirete 28:42
28:45

Hmm. Well, what happened, Wally...

redirete 28:46
28:48

was that fall I was in New York...

redirete 28:48
28:51

and I met this young Japanese Buddhist priest named Kozan...

redirete 28:51
28:54

<i>and I thought he was Puck from the Midsummer Night's Dream.</i>

redirete 28:54
28:56

You know, he had this beautiful, delicate smile.

redirete 28:56
28:58

<i>I thought he was the Little Prince.</i>

redirete 28:58
29:02

So, naturally, I decided to go off to the Sahara desert...

redirete 29:02
29:05

<i>to work on The Little Prince with two actors and this Japanese monk.</i>

redirete 29:05
29:07

You did?

redirete 29:07
29:12

Well, I mean, I was still in a very peculiar state at that time, Wally.

redirete 29:12
29:16

You know, I would - I would look in the rearview mirror of my car...

redirete 29:16
29:19

and see little birds flying out of my mouth.

redirete 29:20
29:24

And I remember always being exhausted in that period.

redirete 29:24
29:28

I always felt weak. You know, I really didn't know what was going on with me.

redirete 29:28
29:32

I would just sit out there all alone in the country for days...

redirete 29:32
29:35

and do nothing but write in my diary.

redirete 29:36
29:38

<i>- And I was always thinking about death. - Huh.</i>

redirete 29:38
29:40

<i>But you went to the Sahara.</i>

redirete 29:41
29:43

<i>Oh,yes, we went off into the desert...</i>

redirete 29:43
29:45

and we rode through the desert on camels.

redirete 29:45
29:47

And we rode and we rode.

redirete 29:47
29:49

And then at night we would walk out under that enormous sky...

redirete 29:49
29:51

and look at the stars.

redirete 29:52
29:55

I just kept thinking about the same things that I was always thinking about at home -

redirete 29:55
29:57

particularly about Chiquita.

redirete 29:57
30:01

In fact, I thought about just about nothing but my marriage.

redirete 30:03
30:05

And then I remember one incredibly dark night...

redirete 30:05
30:08

being at an oasis, and there were palm trees moving in the wind...

redirete 30:08
30:12

and I could hear Kozan singing far away in that beautiful bass voice.

redirete 30:12
30:15

And I tried to follow his voice along the sand.

redirete 30:15
30:17

[ Laughing ]

redirete 30:17
30:20

You see, I thought he had something to teach me, Wally.

redirete 30:22
30:24

And sometimes I would meditate with him.

redirete 30:24
30:27

Sometimes I'd go off and meditate by myself.

redirete 30:28
30:31

You know, I would see images of Chiquita.

redirete 30:31
30:33

Once I actually saw her growing old...

redirete 30:33
30:36

and her hair turning gray in front of my eyes.

redirete 30:36
30:41

And I would just wail and yell my lungs out out there on the dunes.

redirete 30:44
30:48

Anyway, the desert was pretty horrible.

redirete 30:48
30:50

It was pretty cold.

redirete 30:50
30:54

We were searching for something, but we couldn't tell if we were finding anything.

redirete 30:54
30:56

You know that once Kozan and I -

redirete 30:56
30:58

we were sitting on a dune, and we just ate sand.

redirete 30:58
31:01

No, we weren't trying to be funny. I started, then he started.

redirete 31:01
31:05

We just ate sand and threw up. That's how desperate we were.

redirete 31:05
31:08

In other words, we didn't know why we were there. We didn't know what we were looking for.

redirete 31:09
31:12

The entire thing seemed completely absurd, arid and empty.

redirete 31:12
31:15

It was like, uh - like a last chance or something.

redirete 31:15
31:18

<i>Huh.</i>

redirete 31:18
31:20

So what happened then?

redirete 31:20
31:23

<i>Well, in those days...</i>

redirete 31:23
31:25

I went completely on impulse.

redirete 31:25
31:29

So on impulse I brought Kozan back to stay with us in New York...

redirete 31:29
31:32

after we got back from the Sahara, and he stayed for six months.

redirete 31:32
31:36

<i>-And he really sort of took over the whole family, in a way. - What do you mean?</i>

redirete 31:36
31:41

<i>Well, there was certainly a center missing in the house at the time.</i>

redirete 31:41
31:43

There certainly wasn't a father, 'cause I was always thinking...

redirete 31:43
31:47

about going off to Tibet or doing God knows what.

redirete 31:47
31:49

And so he taught the whole family to meditate...

redirete 31:49
31:53

and he told them all about Asia and the East and his monastery and everything.

redirete 31:54
31:58

He really captivated everybody with an incredible bag of tricks.

redirete 31:58
32:01

He had literally developed himself, Wally...

redirete 32:01
32:06

so that he could push on his fingers and rise off out of his chair.

redirete 32:06
32:08

I mean, he could literally go like this -

redirete 32:08
32:10

You know, push on his fingers and go into like a headstand...

redirete 32:10
32:12

and just hold himself there with two fingers.

redirete 32:12
32:15

Or if Chiquita would suddenly get a little tension in her neck...

redirete 32:15
32:18

well, he'd immediately have her down on the floor, he'd be walking up and down on her back...

redirete 32:18
32:21

doing these unbelievable massages, you know.

redirete 32:22
32:24

And the children found him amazing.

redirete 32:24
32:28

I mean, you know, we'd visit friends who had children...

redirete 32:28
32:30

and immediately he'd be playing with these children...

redirete 32:30
32:32

in a way that, you know, we just can't do.

redirete 32:32
32:35

I mean, those children - just giggles, giggles, giggles...

redirete 32:35
32:38

about what this Japanese monk was doing in these holy robes.

redirete 32:38
32:41

I mean, he was an acrobat, a ventriloquist...

redirete 32:41
32:44

a magician, everything.

redirete 32:44
32:46

You know, the amazing thing was that...

redirete 32:46
32:48

I don't think he had any interest in children whatsoever.

redirete 32:49
32:51

None at all. I don't think he liked them.

redirete 32:51
32:53

I mean, you know, when he stayed with us...

redirete 32:53
32:56

in the first week, really, the kids were just googly-eyed over him.

redirete 32:56
32:59

But then a couple of weeks later, Chiquita and I could be out...

redirete 32:59
33:02

and Marina could have flu or a temperature of 1 04...

redirete 33:02
33:05

and he wouldn't even go in and say hello to her.

redirete 33:05
33:08

But he was taking over more and more.

redirete 33:08
33:11

I mean, his own habits had completely changed.

redirete 33:11
33:16

You know, he started wearing these elegant Gucci shoes under his white monk's robes.

redirete 33:16
33:18

He was eating huge amounts of food.

redirete 33:18
33:21

I mean, he ate twice as much as Nicolas ate, you know?

redirete 33:21
33:24

This tiny little Buddhist when I first met him, you know...

redirete 33:24
33:27

was eating a little bowl of milk- hot milk with rice -

redirete 33:27
33:30

was now eating huge beef.

redirete 33:32
33:34

It was just very strange.

redirete 33:34
33:38

You know, and we had tried working together, but really our work consisted mostly...

redirete 33:38
33:43

of my trying to do these incredibly painful prostrations that they do in the monastery.

redirete 33:43
33:46

You know, so really we hadn't been working very much.

redirete 33:46
33:51

Anyway, we were out in the country, and we all went to Christmas mass together.

redirete 33:52
33:54

You know, he was all dressed up in his Buddhist finery.

redirete 33:54
33:58

And it was one of those - one of those awful, dreary Catholic churches on Long Island...

redirete 33:58
34:02

where the priest talks about communism and birth control.

redirete 34:02
34:06

And as I was sitting there in mass, I was wondering, ''What in the world is going on?''

redirete 34:06
34:08

I mean, here I am. I'm a grown man...

redirete 34:08
34:11

and there's this strange person living in the house, and I'm not working -

redirete 34:11
34:14

You know, I was doing nothing but scribbling a little poetry in my diary.

redirete 34:14
34:19

And I can't get a job teaching anymore, and I don't know what I want to do.

redirete 34:19
34:25

When all of a sudden a huge creature appeared, looking at the congregation.

redirete 34:25
34:29

It was about, I'd say, 6'8'' - something like that, you know...

redirete 34:29
34:32

and it was - it was half bull, half man...

redirete 34:32
34:34

and its skin was blue.

redirete 34:34
34:38

It had violets growing out of its eyelids and poppies growing out of its toenails.

redirete 34:38
34:42

<i>And it just stood there for the whole mass.</i>

redirete 34:42
34:44

I mean, I could not make that creature disappear.

redirete 34:44
34:47

You know, I thought, ''Oh, well. You know, I'm just seeing this 'cause I'm bored.''

redirete 34:48
34:53

You know, close my- I could not make that creature go away.

redirete 34:53
34:57

Okay. Now, I didn't talk with people about it, because they'd think I was weird...

redirete 34:57
35:02

but I felt that this creature was somehow coming to comfort me...

redirete 35:02
35:06

that somehow he was appearing to say...

redirete 35:06
35:10

''Well, you may feel low and you might not be able to create a play right now...

redirete 35:10
35:14

''but look at what can come to you on Christmas Eve. Hang on, old friend.

redirete 35:15
35:17

''I may seem weird to you, but on these weird voyages...

redirete 35:17
35:19

''weird creatures appear.

redirete 35:20
35:23

It's part of the journey. You're okay. Hang in there.''

redirete 35:29
35:31

By the way, uh, did you ever see...

redirete 35:31
35:35

<i>that play, uh, The Violets are Blue?</i>

redirete 35:37
35:39

<i>No.</i>

redirete 35:39
35:42

Oh, when you mentioned the violets, it-it reminded me of that.

redirete 35:42
35:45

It-It was about, um, people...

redirete 35:45
35:48

being, uh, strangled on a - on a submarine.

redirete 35:48
35:50

Hmm.

redirete 35:54
35:59

[ Sighs ] Well, so that was - [ Chuckles ] that was Christmas.

redirete 35:59
36:02

What happened after that?

redirete 36:02
36:05

- Do you really want to hear about all this? - Yeah.

redirete 36:05
36:09

Well, around that time...

redirete 36:12
36:16

I was beginning to think about going to India. And Kozan suddenly left one day.

redirete 36:16
36:19

I was beginning to get into a lot of very strange ideas around that time.

redirete 36:19
36:23

Now, for example, I'd developed this - Well, I got this idea which I -

redirete 36:24
36:27

Now, it was very appealing to me at the time, you know -

redirete 36:27
36:30

which was that I would have a flag, a large flag...

redirete 36:30
36:33

and that wherever I worked, this flag would fly.

redirete 36:33
36:37

Or if we were outside, say, with a group, that the flag could be the thing we lay on at night...

redirete 36:37
36:41

and that somehow, between working on this flag and lying on this flag...

redirete 36:41
36:43

this flag flying over us...

redirete 36:43
36:47

that the flag would pick up vibrations of a kind...

redirete 36:47
36:50

that would still be in the flag when I brought it home.

redirete 36:50
36:53

So I went down to meet this flag maker that I'd heard about.

redirete 36:53
36:55

And you know, there was this very straightforward-looking guy.

redirete 36:55
37:00

You know, very sweet, really healthy-looking and everything. Nice big, blond.

redirete 37:00
37:03

And he had a beautiful, clean loft down in the village with lovely, happy flags.

redirete 37:03
37:07

<i>And I was all into The Little Prince, and I talked to him about The Little Prince...</i>

redirete 37:07
37:11

these adventures and everything, how I needed the flag and what the flag should be.

redirete 37:11
37:13

He seemed to really connect with it.

redirete 37:13
37:16

So, two weeks later, I came back.

redirete 37:16
37:19

He showed me a flag that I thought was very odd, you know...

redirete 37:19
37:21

'cause I had, you know - well, you know...

redirete 37:22
37:25

I had expected something gentle and lyrical.

redirete 37:25
37:27

There was something about this that was so powerful...

redirete 37:27
37:29

it was almost overwhelming.

redirete 37:29
37:31

And it did include the Tibetan swastika.

redirete 37:33
37:35

He put a swastika in your flag?

redirete 37:35
37:38

No, it was the Tibetan swastika, not the Nazi swastika.

redirete 37:38
37:40

It's one of the most ancient Tibetan symbols.

redirete 37:41
37:44

And it was just strange, you know?

redirete 37:44
37:47

But I brought it home, because my idea with this flag...

redirete 37:47
37:50

was that before I left - you know, before I left for India...

redirete 37:50
37:54

I wanted several people who were close to me to have this flag in the room for the night...

redirete 37:54
37:57

to sleep with it, you know, and then in the morning to sew something into the flag.

redirete 37:57
38:01

So I took the flag into Marina, and I said, ''Hey, look at this. What do you think of this?''

redirete 38:02
38:04

And she said, ''What is that? That's awful.'' I said, ''It's a flag.''

redirete 38:04
38:06

And she said, ''I don't like it.''

redirete 38:06
38:09

I said, ''I kind of thought you might like to spend the night with it, you know.''

redirete 38:09
38:12

But she really thought the flag was awful.

redirete 38:13
38:17

So then Chiquita threw this party for me before I left for India...

redirete 38:17
38:19

and the apartment was filled with guests.

redirete 38:19
38:22

And at one point Chiquita said, ''The flag, the flag. Where's the flag?''

redirete 38:22
38:26

And I said, ''Oh, yeah. The flag.'' And I go and get the flag, and I open it up.

redirete 38:26
38:30

Chiquita goes absolutely white and runs out of the room and vomits.

redirete 38:30
38:34

So the party just comes to a halt and breaks up.

redirete 38:34
38:36

And then the next day I gave it to this young woman...

redirete 38:37
38:39

who'd been in my group in Poland, who was now in New York.

redirete 38:39
38:43

I didn't tell her anything about any of this.

redirete 38:43
38:45

At 5:00 in the morning, she called me up and she said...

redirete 38:45
38:48

''I gotta come and see you right away.'' I thought, ''Oh, God.''

redirete 38:48
38:52

She came up, and she said, ''I saw things - I saw things around this flag.

redirete 38:52
38:55

''Now, I know you're stubborn, and I know you want to take this thing with you...

redirete 38:55
38:58

''but if you'd follow my advice, you'd put it in a hole in the ground...

redirete 38:58
39:01

and burn it and cover it with earth, cause the devil's in it.''

redirete 39:01
39:03

I never took the flag with me.

redirete 39:03
39:07

In fact, I gave it to her, and, uh, she - she had a ceremony with it...

redirete 39:07
39:10

six months later, in France, with some friends...

redirete 39:10
39:12

in which, uh, they did burn it.

redirete 39:13
39:16

[ Laughing ] God.

redirete 39:16
39:19

That's really, really amazing.

redirete 39:21
39:23

So, did you ever go to India?

redirete 39:23
39:27

Oh, yes, I - I went to India in the spring, Wally...

redirete 39:27
39:29

and I came back home feeling all wrong.

redirete 39:29
39:34

I mean, you know, I'd been to India, and I'd just felt like a tourist.

redirete 39:34
39:37

I'd found nothing.

redirete 39:37
39:41

So I was - I was spending, uh, the summer on Long Island with my family...

redirete 39:42
39:45

and I heard about this community in Scotland called Findhorn...

redirete 39:45
39:48

where people sang and talked and meditated with plants.

redirete 39:48
39:54

And it was founded by several rather middle-class English and Scottish eccentrics.

redirete 39:54
39:56

Some of them intellectuals, and some of them not.

redirete 39:56
39:59

And I'd heard that they'd grown things in soil...

redirete 39:59
40:02

that supposedly nothing can grow in, 'cause it's almost beach soil...

redirete 40:02
40:06

and that they'd built - not built - they'd grown the largest cauliflowers in the world...

redirete 40:06
40:08

and there are sort of cabbages.

redirete 40:08
40:12

And they've grown trees that can't grow in the British Isles.

redirete 40:12
40:15

So I went there. I mean, it is an amazing place, Wally.

redirete 40:15
40:19

I mean, if there are insects bothering the plants...

redirete 40:19
40:23

they will talk with the insects and, you know, make an agreement...

redirete 40:23
40:27

by which they'll set aside a special patch of vegetables just for the insects...

redirete 40:27
40:29

and then the insects will leave the main part alone.

redirete 40:29
40:31

- Huh. - Things like that.

redirete 40:32
40:34

And everything they do they do beautifully.

redirete 40:34
40:37

I mean, the buildings just shine.

redirete 40:37
40:41

And I mean, for instance, the icebox, the stove, the car- they all have names.

redirete 40:41
40:43

And since you wouldn't treat Helen, the icebox...

redirete 40:43
40:46

with any less respect than you would Margaret, your wife...

redirete 40:46
40:50

you know, you make sure that Helen is as clean as Margaret, or treated with equal respect.

redirete 40:50
40:52

[ Wally Giggles ]

redirete 40:52
40:57

And when I was there, Wally, I remember being in the woods...

redirete 40:57
41:01

and I would look at a leaf, and I would actually see that thing...

redirete 41:01
41:05

that is alive in that leaf.

redirete 41:05
41:08

And then I remember just running through the woods as fast as I could...

redirete 41:08
41:10

with this incredible laugh coming out of me...

redirete 41:10
41:16

<i>and really being in that state,you know, where laughter and tears seem to merge.</i>

redirete 41:16
41:18

I mean, it absolutely blasted me open.

redirete 41:18
41:21

When I came out of Findhorn, I was hallucinating nonstop.

redirete 41:21
41:23

I was seeing clouds as creatures.

redirete 41:24
41:26

The people on the airplane all had animals' faces.

redirete 41:26
41:30

I mean, I was on a trip. It was like being in a William Blake world suddenly.

redirete 41:30
41:32

Things were exploding.

redirete 41:32
41:37

So immediately I went to Belgrade, 'cause I wanted to talk to Grotowski.

redirete 41:37
41:40

Grotowski and I got together at midnight in my hotel room...

redirete 41:40
41:44

and we drank instant coffee out of the top of my shaving cream...

redirete 41:44
41:48

and we talked from midnight until 1 1 :00 the next morning.

redirete 41:48
41:50

- God. What did he say? - Nothing!

redirete 41:50
41:53

I talked. He didn't say a word.

redirete 41:53
41:56

And -And then I guess really...

redirete 41:57
42:01

the last big experience of this kind took place that fall.

redirete 42:01
42:03

It was out at Montauk on Long Island...

redirete 42:03
42:07

and there were only about nine of us involved, mostly men.

redirete 42:07
42:10

And we borrowed Dick Avedon's property out at Montauk.

redirete 42:10
42:13

And the country out there is like Heathcliff country.

redirete 42:14
42:16

It's absolutely wild.

redirete 42:16
42:19

What we wanted to do was we wanted to take, you know -

redirete 42:19
42:21

We wanted to take All Souls' Eve, Halloween...

redirete 42:21
42:23

and use it as a point of departure for something.

redirete 42:24
42:27

So each one of us prepared some sort of event for the others...

redirete 42:27
42:30

somehow in the spirit of All Souls' Eve.

redirete 42:30
42:33

But the biggest event was three of the people...

redirete 42:33
42:35

kept disappearing in the middle of the night each night...

redirete 42:36
42:38

and we knew they were preparing something big...

redirete 42:38
42:40

but we didn't know what.

redirete 42:40
42:44

And midnight on Halloween, under a dark moon, above these cliffs...

redirete 42:44
42:48

we were all told to gather at the topmost cliff and that we would be taken somewhere.

redirete 42:48
42:53

And we did. And we waited, and it was very, very cold.

redirete 42:53
42:56

And then the three of them - Helen, Bill and Fred - showed up wearing white.

redirete 42:56
43:01

You know, something they'd made out of sheets - looked a little spooky, not funny.

redirete 43:01
43:05

And they took us into the basement of this house that had burned down on the property.

redirete 43:05
43:09

And in this ruined basement, they had set up a table with benches they'd made.

redirete 43:10
43:15

And on this table they had laid out paper, pencils, wine and glasses.

redirete 43:15
43:20

And we were all asked to sit at the table and to make out our last will and testament.

redirete 43:20
43:24

You know, to think about and write down whatever our last words were to the world...

redirete 43:24
43:26

or to somebody we were very close to.

redirete 43:26
43:29

And that's quite a task.

redirete 43:29
43:32

I must have been there for about an hour and a half or so, maybe two.

redirete 43:33
43:36

And then one at a time they would ask one of us to come with them...

redirete 43:36
43:38

and I was one of the last.

redirete 43:38
43:41

And they came for me, and they put a blindfold on me...

redirete 43:41
43:43

and they ran me through these fields - two people.

redirete 43:43
43:47

And they'd found a kind of potting shed - you know, a kind of shed, on the grounds...

redirete 43:47
43:51

a little tiny room that had once had tools in it.

redirete 43:51
43:54

And they took me down the steps, into this basement...

redirete 43:54
43:59

and the room was just filled with harsh white light.

redirete 43:59
44:02

Then they told me to get undressed and give them all my valuables.

redirete 44:02
44:05

Then they put me on a table, and they sponged me down.

redirete 44:05
44:09

Well, you know, I just started flashing on-on-on death camps and secret police.

redirete 44:10
44:13

I don't know what happened to the other people, but I just started to cry uncontrollably.

redirete 44:13
44:18

Uh, then-then they got me to my feet and they took photographs of me, naked.

redirete 44:18
44:21

And then naked, again blindfolded, I was run through these forests...

redirete 44:21
44:24

and we came to a kind of tent made of sheets, with sheets on the ground.

redirete 44:24
44:26

And there were all these naked bodies...

redirete 44:26
44:30

huddling together for warmth against the cold.

redirete 44:30
44:32

Must have been left there for about an hour.

redirete 44:32
44:35

And then again, one by one, one at a time, we were led out.

redirete 44:35
44:37

The blindfold was put on...

redirete 44:38
44:41

and I felt myself being lowered onto something like a stretcher.

redirete 44:41
44:46

And the stretcher was carried a long way, very slowly, through these forests...

redirete 44:46
44:52

and then I felt myself being lowered into the ground.

redirete 44:52
44:56

They had, in fact, dug six graves...

redirete 44:56
44:59

eight feet deep.

redirete 44:59
45:03

And then I felt these pieces of wood being put on me.

redirete 45:03
45:07

And I cannot tell you, Wally, what I was going through.

redirete 45:07
45:10

And then the stretcher was lowered into the grave...

redirete 45:10
45:12

and then this wood was put on me...

redirete 45:12
45:15

and then my valuables were put on me, in my hands.

redirete 45:15
45:17

And they'd taken, you know, a kind of sheet or canvas...

redirete 45:18
45:20

and they'd stretched about this much above my head...

redirete 45:20
45:23

and then they shoveled dirt into the grave...

redirete 45:24
45:29

so that I really had the feeling of being buried alive.

redirete 45:31
45:34

And after being in the grave for about half an hour-

redirete 45:34
45:37

I mean, I didn't know how long I'd be in there -

redirete 45:37
45:40

I was resurrected, lifted out of the grave...

redirete 45:40
45:42

blindfold taken off, and run through these fields.

redirete 45:42
45:47

And we came to a great circle of fire, with music and hot wine...

redirete 45:47
45:49

and everyone danced until dawn.

redirete 45:49
45:52

[ Chuckling ] And then at dawn...

redirete 45:53
45:56

to the best of our ability, we filled up the graves...

redirete 45:56
45:58

and went back to New York.

redirete 46:01
46:05

And that was really the last big event. I mean, that was the end.

redirete 46:05
46:07

I mean, you know, I began to realize...

redirete 46:07
46:10

I just didn't want to do these things anymore, you know?

redirete 46:10
46:15

<i>I felt sort of becalmed, you know, like that chapter in Moby Dick...</i>

redirete 46:15
46:18

where the wind goes out of the sails.

redirete 46:18
46:21

And then last winter, without, uh, thinking about it very much...

redirete 46:21
46:25

I went to see this agent I know to tell him I was interested in directing plays again.

redirete 46:25
46:27

Actually, he seemed a little surprised...

redirete 46:28
46:31

to see that Rip Van Winkle was still alive.

redirete 46:37
46:39

Mmm.

redirete 46:39
46:41

<i>God.</i>

redirete 46:41
46:43

I didn't know they were so small.

redirete 46:43
46:45

<i>[ Andr� Chuckles ]</i>

redirete 46:46
46:48

<i>Well,you know, frankly...</i>

redirete 46:48
46:51

I'm sort of repelled by the whole story, if you really want to know.

redirete 46:51
46:53

- What? - Ah, you know -

redirete 46:53
46:55

Who did I think I was, you know?

redirete 46:55
47:00

I mean, that's the story of some kind of spoiled princess, you know.

redirete 47:00
47:02

Who did I think I was, the Shah of Iran?

redirete 47:02
47:07

You know, I really wonder if people such as myself are really not Albert Speer, Wally.

redirete 47:07
47:11

- You know, Hitler's architect, Albert Speer? - What?

redirete 47:12
47:15

No, I've been thinking a lot about him recently because, uh, I think I am Speer.

redirete 47:15
47:18

And I think it's time that I was caught and tried the way he was.

redirete 47:18
47:20

What are you talking about?

redirete 47:20
47:24

Well, you know, he was a very cultivated man, an architect, an artist, you know...

redirete 47:24
47:27

so he thought the ordinary rules of life didn't apply to him either.

redirete 47:30
47:34

I mean, I really feel that everything I've done...

redirete 47:34
47:37

is horrific,just horrific.

redirete 47:37
47:40

My God. But why?

redirete 47:40
47:44

You see -You see, I've seen a lot of death in the last few years, Wally...

redirete 47:44
47:47

and there's one thing that's for sure about death -

redirete 47:47
47:49

You do it alone, you see. That seems quite certain, you see.

redirete 47:49
47:52

That I've seen. That the people around your bed mean nothing.

redirete 47:53
47:56

Your reviews mean nothing. Whatever it is, you do it alone.

redirete 47:56
48:00

And so the question is, when I get on my deathbed, what kind of a person am I gonna be?

redirete 48:00
48:03

And I'm just very dubious about the kind of person who would have lived his life...

redirete 48:03
48:05

those last few years the way I did.

redirete 48:05
48:07

Why should you feel that way?

redirete 48:07
48:12

You see, I've had a very rough time in the last few months, Wally.

redirete 48:12
48:16

Three different people in my family were in the hospital at the same time.

redirete 48:16
48:18

Then my mother died.

redirete 48:18
48:21

Then Marina had something wrong with her back, and we were terribly worried about her.

redirete 48:21
48:24

You know, so - so, I mean, I'm feeling very raw right now.

redirete 48:24
48:28

I mean, uh - I mean, I can't sleep, my nerves are shot.

redirete 48:28
48:30

I mean, I'm affected by everything.

redirete 48:30
48:34

You know, la-last week I had this really nice director from Norway over for dinner...

redirete 48:34
48:36

and he's someone I've known for years and years...

redirete 48:36
48:38

and he's somebody that I think I'm quite fond of.

redirete 48:39
48:42

And I was sitting there just thinking that he was a pompous, defensive...

redirete 48:42
48:44

conservative stuffed shirt who was only interested in the theater.

redirete 48:44
48:48

He was talking and talking. His mother had been a famous Norwegian comedienne.

redirete 48:48
48:52

I realized he had said ''I remember my mother'' at least 400 times during the evening.

redirete 48:52
48:55

<i>And he was telling story after story about his mother.</i>

redirete 48:56
48:58

<i>You know, I'd heard these stories 20 times in the past.</i>

redirete 48:59
49:01

He was drinking this whole bottle of bourbon very quietly.

redirete 49:01
49:03

His laugh was so horrible.

redirete 49:04
49:07

You know, I could hear his laugh - the pain in that laugh, the hollowness.

redirete 49:07
49:10

You know, what being that woman's son had done to him.

redirete 49:10
49:13

You know, so at a certain point I just had to ask him to leave - nicely, you know.

redirete 49:14
49:17

I told him I had to get up early the next morning, 'cause it was so horrible.

redirete 49:17
49:19

It was just as if he had died in my living room.

redirete 49:20
49:24

You know, then I went into the bathroom and cried 'cause I felt I'd lost a friend.

redirete 49:24
49:26

And then after he'd gone, I turned the television on...

redirete 49:26
49:28

and there was this guy who had just won the something-something.

redirete 49:28
49:32

Some sports event - some kind of a great big check and some kind of huge silver bottle.

redirete 49:32
49:34

And he, you know - he couldn't stuff the check in the bottle...

redirete 49:35
49:38

and he put the bottle in front of his nose and pretended it was his face.

redirete 49:38
49:40

He wasn't really listening to the guy who was interviewing him...

redirete 49:40
49:44

but he was smiling malevolently at his friends, and I looked at that guy and I thought...

redirete 49:44
49:48

''What a horrible, empty, manipulative rat.''

redirete 49:48
49:52

Then I thought, ''That guy is me.'' [ Laughing ]

redirete 49:52
49:55

Then last night actually, you know, it was our 20th wedding anniversary...

redirete 49:55
49:57

and I took Chiquita to see this show about Billie Holiday.

redirete 49:57
50:01

I looked at these show business people who know nothing about Billie Holiday, nothing.

redirete 50:01
50:05

You see, they were really kind of, in a way, intellectual creeps.

redirete 50:05
50:09

And I suddenly had this feeling. I mean, you know I was just sitting there, crying through most of the show.

redirete 50:09
50:12

And I suddenly had this feeling I was just as creepy as they were...

redirete 50:12
50:14

and that my whole life had been a sham...

redirete 50:14
50:17

and I didn't have the guts to be Billie Holiday either.

redirete 50:17
50:20

I mean, I really feel that I'm just washed up, wiped out.

redirete 50:21
50:23

I feel I've just squandered my life.

redirete 50:27
50:31

<i>Andr�, now, how can you say something like that?</i>

redirete 50:31
50:33

I mean -

redirete 50:40
50:46

Well, you know, I may be in a very emotional state right now, Wally...

redirete 50:46
50:49

but since I've come back home I've just been finding the world we're living in...

redirete 50:49
50:52

more and more upsetting.

redirete 50:52
50:55

<i>I mean, last week I went down to the Public Theater one afternoon.</i>

redirete 50:55
50:57

You know, when I walked in, I said hello to everybody...

redirete 50:57
51:00

'cause I know them all, and they all know me, they're always very friendly.

redirete 51:00
51:04

You know that seven or eight people told me how wonderful I looked?

redirete 51:04
51:08

And then one person - one - a woman who runs the casting office, said...

redirete 51:08
51:10

''Gee, you look horrible. Is something wrong?''

redirete 51:10
51:13

Now, she -You know, we started talking. Of course, I started telling her things.

redirete 51:13
51:17

And she suddenly burst into tears because an aunt of hers who's 80...

redirete 51:17
51:21

whom she's very fond of, went into the hospital for a cataract, which was solved.

redirete 51:21
51:25

But the nurse was so sloppy, she didn't put the bed rails up...

redirete 51:25
51:28

and so the aunt fell out of bed and is now a complete cripple.

redirete 51:28
51:30

So you know, we were talking about hospitals.

redirete 51:30
51:34

Now, you know, this woman, because of who she is -

redirete 51:34
51:36

You know, 'cause this had happened to her very, very recently.

redirete 51:36
51:40

- She could see me with complete clarity. - Uh-huh.

redirete 51:40
51:42

She didn't know anything about what I'd been going through.

redirete 51:42
51:45

But the other people, what they saw was this tan, or this shirt...

redirete 51:45
51:47

or the fact that the shirt goes well with the tan.

redirete 51:47
51:49

So they said, ''Gee, you look wonderful.''

redirete 51:49
51:52

Now, they're living in an insane dreamworld.

redirete 51:52
51:55

They're not looking. That seems very strange to me.

redirete 51:55
51:59

Right, because they just didn't see anything, somehow...

redirete 51:59
52:02

except, uh, the few little things that they wanted to see.

redirete 52:05
52:10

Yeah, you know, it's like what happened just before my mother died.

redirete 52:10
52:12

You know, we'd gone to the hospital to see my mother...

redirete 52:12
52:15

and I went in to see her...

redirete 52:15
52:19

and I saw this woman who looked as bad as any survivor of Auschwitz or Dachau.

redirete 52:20
52:23

And I was out in the hall sort of comforting my father...

redirete 52:23
52:27

when a doctor who was a specialist in a problem she had with her arm...

redirete 52:27
52:30

went into her room and came out just beaming.

redirete 52:30
52:34

And he said, ''Boy, don't we have a lot of reason to feel great?

redirete 52:34
52:38

Isn't it wonderful how she's coming along?''

redirete 52:38
52:43

Now, all he saw was the arm. That's all he saw.

redirete 52:43
52:47

Now, here's another person who's existing in a dream.

redirete 52:47
52:50

Who, on top of that, is a kind of butcher...

redirete 52:50
52:52

who's committing a kind of familial murder...

redirete 52:52
52:56

because when he comes out of that room, he psychically kills us...

redirete 52:56
52:58

by taking us into a dream world...

redirete 52:58
53:01

where we become confused and frightened...

redirete 53:01
53:05

'cause the moment before, we saw somebody who already looked dead...

redirete 53:05
53:09

and now here comes a specialist who tells us they're in wonderful shape.

redirete 53:09
53:12

I mean, they were literally driving my father crazy.

redirete 53:12
53:15

I mean, you know, here's an 82-year-old man who's very emotional...

redirete 53:15
53:18

and you know, and if you go in one moment, and you see the person's dying...

redirete 53:18
53:21

and you don't want them to die, and then a doctor comes out five minutes later...

redirete 53:21
53:23

and tells you they're in wonderful shape -

redirete 53:24
53:26

I mean, you know, you can go crazy.

redirete 53:26
53:30

- Yeah. I know what you mean. - I mean, the doctor didn't see my mother.

redirete 53:30
53:33

The people at the Public Theater didn't see me.

redirete 53:33
53:36

I mean, we're just walking around in some kind of fog.

redirete 53:36
53:40

I think we're all in a trance. We're walking around like zombies.

redirete 53:40
53:44

I don't - I don't think we're even aware of ourselves or our own reaction to things.

redirete 53:44
53:47

We -We're just going around all day like unconscious machines...

redirete 53:47
53:50

and meanwhile there's all of this rage and worry and uneasiness...

redirete 53:50
53:52

just building up and building up inside us.

redirete 53:52
53:54

That's right. It just builds up, uh...

redirete 53:55
53:58

and then it just leaps out inappropriately.

redirete 53:59
54:02

I mean, I remember when I was, uh, acting in this play...

redirete 54:02
54:04

<i>based on The Master and Margarita by Bulgakov.</i>

redirete 54:04
54:07

And I was playing the part of the cat.

redirete 54:07
54:09

But they had trouble, uh, making up my cat suit...

redirete 54:09
54:13

so I didn't get it delivered to me till the night of the first performance.

redirete 54:13
54:17

Particularly the head - I mean, I'd never even had a chance to try it on.

redirete 54:17
54:20

And about four of my fellow actors actually came up to me...

redirete 54:20
54:23

and they said these things which I just couldn't help thinking...

redirete 54:23
54:25

were attempts to destroy me.

redirete 54:25
54:29

You know, one of them said, uh, ''Oh, well, now that head...

redirete 54:29
54:31

''will totally change your hearing in the performance.

redirete 54:32
54:35

''You may hear everything completely differently...

redirete 54:35
54:37

''and it may be very upsetting.

redirete 54:37
54:41

''Now, I was once in a performance where I was wearing earmuffs...

redirete 54:41
54:44

and I couldn't hear anything anybody said.''

redirete 54:45
54:48

And then another one said, ''Oh, you know, whenever I wear even a hat on stage...

redirete 54:48
54:50

I tend to faint.''

redirete 54:50
54:53

I mean, those remarks were just full of hostility...

redirete 54:53
54:57

because, I mean, if I'd listened to those people, I would have gone out there on stage...

redirete 54:57
55:00

and I wouldn't have been able to hear anything, and I would have fainted.

redirete 55:00
55:02

But the hostility was completely inappropriate...

redirete 55:02
55:04

because, in fact, those people liked me.

redirete 55:04
55:07

I mean, that hostility was just some feeling that was, you know...

redirete 55:08
55:10

left over from some previous experience.

redirete 55:10
55:14

Because somehow in our social existence today...

redirete 55:14
55:17

we're only allowed to express our feelings, uh...

redirete 55:17
55:19

weirdly and indirectly.

redirete 55:19
55:22

If you express them directly, everybody goes crazy.

redirete 55:22
55:25

Well, did you express your feelings about what those people said to you?

redirete 55:25
55:29

No. [ Chuckles ] I mean, I didn't even know what I felt till I thought about it later.

redirete 55:29
55:33

And I mean, at the most, you know, in a situation like that, uh...

redirete 55:33
55:35

even if I had known what I felt...

redirete 55:35
55:38

I might say something, if I'm really annoyed...

redirete 55:38
55:42

like, uh, ''Oh, yeah. Well, that's just fascinating...

redirete 55:42
55:46

and, uh, I probably will faint tonight,just as you did.''

redirete 55:46
55:49

I do just the same thing myself.

redirete 55:49
55:52

We can't be direct, so we end up saying the weirdest things.

redirete 55:52
55:55

I mean, I remember a night. It was a couple of weeks after my mother died.

redirete 55:55
55:57

And I was in pretty bad shape.

redirete 55:57
56:00

And I had dinner with three relatively close friends...

redirete 56:00
56:02

two of whom had known my mother quite well...

redirete 56:02
56:04

and all three of whom had known me for years.

redirete 56:04
56:07

You know that we went through that entire evening without my being able to...

redirete 56:07
56:09

for a moment, get anywhere near what -

redirete 56:09
56:12

Not that I wanted to sit and have this dreary evening...

redirete 56:12
56:14

in which I was talking about all this pain that I was going through and everything.

redirete 56:15
56:16

Really, not at all.

redirete 56:16
56:18

But the fact that nobody could say...

redirete 56:19
56:21

''Gee, what a shame about your mother'' or ''How are you feeling?''

redirete 56:22
56:25

It was just as if nothing had happened. They were all making these jokes and laughing.

redirete 56:25
56:27

I got quite crazy, as a matter of fact.

redirete 56:27
56:30

One of these people mentioned a certain man whom I don't like very much...

redirete 56:30
56:34

and I started screeching about how he had just been found in the Bronx River...

redirete 56:34
56:38

and his penis had dropped off from gonorrhea, and all kinds of insane things.

redirete 56:38
56:43

And later, when I got home, I realized I'd just been desperate to break through this ice.

redirete 56:43
56:44

Yeah.

redirete 56:44
56:48

I mean, do you realize, Wally, if you brought that situation into a Tibetan home -

redirete 56:48
56:51

That'd be just so far out. I mean, they wouldn't be able to understand it.

redirete 56:51
56:54

That would be simply- simply so weird, Wally.

redirete 56:54
56:58

If four Tibetans came together, and tragedy had just struck one of the ones...

redirete 56:58
57:03

and they spent the whole evening going - [ Loud Laughing ]

redirete 57:03
57:05

<i>I mean,you know, Tibetans would have looked at that...</i>

redirete 57:05
57:08

and would have thought that was the most unimaginable behavior.

redirete 57:08
57:10

- But for us, that's common behavior. - Mm-hmm.

redirete 57:11
57:14

I mean, really, the - the Africans would have probably put their spears into all four of us...

redirete 57:14
57:16

'cause it would have driven them crazy.

redirete 57:16
57:19

They would have thought we were dangerous animals or something like that.

redirete 57:19
57:23

- Right. - I mean, that's absolutely abnormal behavior.

redirete 57:23
57:25

Is everything all right, gentlemen?

redirete 57:25
57:27

- Great. - Yeah.

redirete 57:31
57:33

But those are typical evenings for us.

redirete 57:34
57:38

I mean, we go to dinners and parties like that all the time.

redirete 57:38
57:41

These evenings are really like sort of sickly dreams...

redirete 57:41
57:43

because people are talking in symbols.

redirete 57:44
57:48

Everyone is sort of floating through this fog of symbols and unconscious feelings.

redirete 57:48
57:50

No one says what they're really thinking about.

redirete 57:50
57:55

Then people will start making these jokes that are really some sort of secret code.

redirete 57:55
57:58

Right. Well, what often happens in some of these evenings...

redirete 57:58
58:02

is that these really crazy little fantasies will just start being played with, you know...

redirete 58:02
58:06

and everyone will be talking at once and sort of saying...

redirete 58:06
58:09

''Hey, wouldn't it be great if Frank Sinatra and Mrs. Nixon and blah-blah-blah...

redirete 58:10
58:12

were in such and such a situation?''

redirete 58:12
58:16

You know, always with famous people, and always sort of grotesque.

redirete 58:16
58:18

Or people will be talking about some horrible thing...

redirete 58:18
58:23

like - like, uh, the death of that girl in the car with Ted Kennedy...

redirete 58:23
58:25

and they'll just be roaring with laughter.

redirete 58:25
58:28

I mean, it's really amazing. It's just unbelievable.

redirete 58:28
58:33

That's the only way anything is expressed, through these completely insane jokes.

redirete 58:33
58:36

I mean, I think that's why I never understand what's going on at a party.

redirete 58:37
58:40

I'm always completely confused.

redirete 58:40
58:45

You know, uh, Debby once said, after one of these New York evenings...

redirete 58:45
58:47

she thought she'd traveled a greater distance...

redirete 58:47
58:51

just by journeying from her origins in the suburbs of Chicago...

redirete 58:51
58:53

to that New York evening...

redirete 58:53
58:56

than her grandmother had traveled in, uh, making her way...

redirete 58:56
58:58

from the steppes of Russia to the suburbs of Chicago.

redirete 58:59
59:01

- I think that's right. - [ Wally Chuckles ]

redirete 59:02
59:05

You know, it may- it may be, Wally, that one of the reasons...

redirete 59:05
59:07

that we don't know what's going on...

redirete 59:07
59:10

is that when we're there at a party, we're all too busy performing.

redirete 59:10
59:11

Uh-huh.

redirete 59:11
59:15

That was one of the reasons that, uh, Grotowski gave up the theater.

redirete 59:15
59:19

He just felt that people in their lives now were performing so well...

redirete 59:19
59:22

that performance in the theater was sort of superfluous...

redirete 59:22
59:24

and, in a way, obscene.

redirete 59:24
59:26

Huh.

redirete 59:26
59:29

Isn't it amazing how often a doctor...

redirete 59:29
59:31

will live up to our expectation of how a doctor should look?

redirete 59:32
59:35

When you see a terrorist on television, he looks just like a terrorist.

redirete 59:35
59:38

I mean, we live in a world in which fathers...

redirete 59:38
59:40

or single people, or artists...

redirete 59:40
59:42

are all trying to live up to someone's fantasy...

redirete 59:42
59:46

of how a father, or a single person, or an artist should look and behave.

redirete 59:46
59:49

They all act as if they know exactly how they ought to conduct themselves...

redirete 59:49
59:51

at every single moment...

redirete 59:51
59:53

and they all seem totally self-confident.

redirete 59:53
59:56

Of course, privately people are very mixed up about themselves.

redirete 59:56
59:57

Yeah.

redirete 59:57
59:59

They don't know what they should be doing with their lives.

redirete 1:00:00
1:00:02

- They're reading all these self-help books. - Oh, God!

redirete 1:00:02
1:00:04

I mean, those books are just so touching, because they show...

redirete 1:00:04
1:00:07

how desperately curious we all are to know how all the others of us...

redirete 1:00:07
1:00:09

are really getting on in life...

redirete 1:00:09
1:00:12

even though, by performing these roles all the time...

redirete 1:00:12
1:00:15

we're just hiding the reality of ourselves from everybody else.

redirete 1:00:15
1:00:18

I mean, we live in such ludicrous ignorance of each other.

redirete 1:00:18
1:00:20

We usually don't know the things we'd like to know...

redirete 1:00:20
1:00:22

even about our supposedly closest friends.

redirete 1:00:22
1:00:24

I mean - I mean, you know...

redirete 1:00:24
1:00:27

suppose you're going through some kind of hell in your own life.

redirete 1:00:27
1:00:30

Well, you would love to know if your friends have experienced similar things.

redirete 1:00:31
1:00:32

But we just don't dare to ask each other.

redirete 1:00:33
1:00:35

No. It would be like asking your friend to drop his role.

redirete 1:00:35
1:00:38

I mean, we just put no value at all on perceiving reality.

redirete 1:00:39
1:00:42

I mean, on the contrary, this incredible emphasis that we all place now...

redirete 1:00:42
1:00:44

on our so-called careers...

redirete 1:00:44
1:00:49

automatically makes perceiving reality a very low priority...

redirete 1:00:49
1:00:54

because if your life is organized around trying to be successful in a career...

redirete 1:00:54
1:00:59

well, it just doesn't matter what you perceive or what you experience.

redirete 1:00:59
1:01:02

You can really sort of shut your mind off for years ahead, in a way.

redirete 1:01:02
1:01:05

You can sort of turn on the automatic pilot.

redirete 1:01:05
1:01:09

You know,just the way your mother's doctor had on his automatic pilot...

redirete 1:01:09
1:01:11

when he went in and he looked at the arm...

redirete 1:01:11
1:01:14

and he totally failed to perceive anything else.

redirete 1:01:14
1:01:18

<i>That's right. Our- Our minds are just focused on these goals and plans...</i>

redirete 1:01:18
1:01:20

which in themselves are not reality.

redirete 1:01:20
1:01:23

No. Goals and plans are not -

redirete 1:01:23
1:01:28

I mean, they're - they're fantasy. They're part of a dream life.

redirete 1:01:28
1:01:31

I mean, you know, it always just does seem so ridiculous, somehow...

redirete 1:01:31
1:01:35

that everybody has to have his little - his little goal in life.

redirete 1:01:35
1:01:39

I mean, it's so absurd, in a way, when you consider that it doesn't matter which one it is.

redirete 1:01:39
1:01:42

Right. And because people's concentration is on their goals...

redirete 1:01:42
1:01:45

in their life they just live each moment by habit.

redirete 1:01:45
1:01:48

Really, like the Norwegian telling the same stories over and over again.

redirete 1:01:48
1:01:51

- Mm-hmm. - Life becomes habitual.

redirete 1:01:51
1:01:53

<i>And it is today.</i>

redirete 1:01:53
1:01:55

I mean, very few things happen now like that moment...

redirete 1:01:55
1:01:58

when Marlon Brando sent the Indian woman to accept the Oscar...

redirete 1:01:58
1:02:00

and everything went haywire.

redirete 1:02:00
1:02:03

Things just very rarely go haywire now.

redirete 1:02:03
1:02:06

<i>And if you're just operating by habit...</i>

redirete 1:02:06
1:02:09

then you're not really living.

redirete 1:02:09
1:02:11

I mean, you know, in Sanskrit, the root of the verb ''to be''...

redirete 1:02:12
1:02:14

is the same as ''to grow'' or ''to make grow.''

redirete 1:02:14
1:02:16

Huh.

redirete 1:02:17
1:02:19

<i>[ Woman Laughing ]</i>

redirete 1:02:19
1:02:21

<i>- Do you know about Roc? - Hmm?</i>

redirete 1:02:21
1:02:23

<i>[ Chuckling ] Oh, well.</i>

redirete 1:02:23
1:02:25

Roc was a wonderful man.

redirete 1:02:26
1:02:28

He was one of the founders of Findhorn...

redirete 1:02:28
1:02:32

and he was one of Scotland's -well, he was Scotland's greatest mathematician...

redirete 1:02:32
1:02:35

and he was one of the century's great mathematicians.

redirete 1:02:35
1:02:40

And he prided himself on the fact that he had no fantasy life, no dream life -

redirete 1:02:40
1:02:43

nothing to stand be - no imaginary life -

redirete 1:02:43
1:02:47

nothing to stand between him and the direct perception of mathematics.

redirete 1:02:47
1:02:51

And one day when he was in his mid-50s, he was walking in the gardens of Edinburgh...

redirete 1:02:51
1:02:54

and he saw a faun.

redirete 1:02:54
1:02:58

The faun was very surprised because fauns have always been able to see people...

redirete 1:02:58
1:03:01

but you know, very few people ever see them.

redirete 1:03:01
1:03:03

You know, uh, those little imaginary creatures.

redirete 1:03:04
1:03:05

- Not a deer. - Oh.

redirete 1:03:06
1:03:09

- You call them fauns, don't you? - I thought a fawn was a baby deer.

redirete 1:03:09
1:03:12

Yeah, well, there's a deer that's called a fawn, but these are like those little imagi -

redirete 1:03:12
1:03:15

- Oh! The kind that Debussy- - Yes. Right.

redirete 1:03:15
1:03:18

Well, so he got to know the faun, and he got to know other fauns...

redirete 1:03:18
1:03:21

and a series of conversations began...

redirete 1:03:21
1:03:24

and more and more fauns would come out every afternoon to meet him.

redirete 1:03:24
1:03:26

And he'd have talks with the fauns.

redirete 1:03:26
1:03:29

Then one day, after a while, when, you know, they'd really gotten to know him...

redirete 1:03:29
1:03:32

they asked him if he would like to meet Pan...

redirete 1:03:32
1:03:34

because Pan would like to meet him.

redirete 1:03:34
1:03:36

And of course, Pan was afraid of terrifying him...

redirete 1:03:36
1:03:39

because he knew of the Christian misconception...

redirete 1:03:39
1:03:42

which portrayed Pan as an evil creature, which he's not.

redirete 1:03:42
1:03:45

But Roc said he would love to meet Pan, and so they met...

redirete 1:03:45
1:03:48

and Pan indirectly sent him on his way on a journey...

redirete 1:03:48
1:03:53

in which he met the other people who began Findhorn.

redirete 1:03:53
1:03:56

But Roc used to practice certain exercises -

redirete 1:03:56
1:03:59

like, uh, for instance, if he were right-handed...

redirete 1:03:59
1:04:01

all today he would do everything with his left hand.

redirete 1:04:01
1:04:04

All day- eating, writing, everything - opening doors...

redirete 1:04:04
1:04:07

in order to break the habits of living.

redirete 1:04:07
1:04:10

Because the great danger, he felt, for him...

redirete 1:04:10
1:04:13

was to fall into a trance, out of habit.

redirete 1:04:13
1:04:18

He had a whole series of very simple exercises that he had invented...

redirete 1:04:18
1:04:22

just to keep seeing, feeling, remembering.

redirete 1:04:22
1:04:24

Because you have to learn now.

redirete 1:04:24
1:04:27

It didn't used to be necessary, but today you have to learn something...

redirete 1:04:27
1:04:29

like, uh, are you really hungry...

redirete 1:04:29
1:04:32

or are you just stuffing your face - [ Laughing ]

redirete 1:04:33
1:04:35

Because that's what you do, out of habit?

redirete 1:04:35
1:04:37

I mean, you can afford to do it, so you do it...

redirete 1:04:38
1:04:39

whether you're hungry or not.

redirete 1:04:40
1:04:42

You know, if you go to the Buddhist Meditation Center...

redirete 1:04:42
1:04:45

they make you taste each bite of your food...

redirete 1:04:45
1:04:49

so it takes two hours - it's horrible - to eat your lunch.

redirete 1:04:49
1:04:52

But you're conscious of the taste of your food.

redirete 1:04:52
1:04:56

If you're just eating out of habit, then you don't taste the food...

redirete 1:04:56
1:04:59

and you're not conscious of the reality of what's happening to you.

redirete 1:04:59
1:05:01

You enter the dream world again.

redirete 1:05:01
1:05:04

Now, do you think maybe we live in this dream world...

redirete 1:05:04
1:05:08

because we do so many things every day that affect us in ways...

redirete 1:05:08
1:05:11

that somehow we're just not aware of?

redirete 1:05:11
1:05:16

I mean, you know, I was thinking, um, last Christmas...

redirete 1:05:16
1:05:19

Debby and I were given an electric blanket.

redirete 1:05:19
1:05:24

I can tell you that it is just such a marvelous advance...

redirete 1:05:24
1:05:28

- over our old way of life, and it is just great. - [ Andr� Chuckling ]

redirete 1:05:28
1:05:32

But, uh, it is quite different from not having an electric blanket...

redirete 1:05:32
1:05:35

and I sometimes sort of wonder, well, what is it doing to me?

redirete 1:05:35
1:05:39

I mean, I sort of feel, uh, I'm not sleeping quite in the same way.

redirete 1:05:39
1:05:41

[ Chuckles ] No, you wouldn't be.

redirete 1:05:41
1:05:44

I mean, uh, and my dreams are sort of different...

redirete 1:05:44
1:05:46

and I feel a little bit different when I get up in the morning.

redirete 1:05:48
1:05:51

I wouldn't put an electric blanket on for anything.

redirete 1:05:51
1:05:56

First, I'd be worried I might get electrocuted. No, I don't trust technology.

redirete 1:05:56
1:06:00

But I mean, the main thing, Wally, is that I think that that kind of comfort...

redirete 1:06:00
1:06:03

just separates you from reality in a very direct way.

redirete 1:06:03
1:06:06

- You mean - - I mean, if you don't have that electric blanket...

redirete 1:06:06
1:06:08

and your apartment is cold and you need to put on another blanket...

redirete 1:06:09
1:06:12

or go into the closet and pile up coats on top of the blankets you have...

redirete 1:06:12
1:06:14

well, then you know it's cold.

redirete 1:06:14
1:06:17

And that sets up a link of things.

redirete 1:06:17
1:06:20

You have compassion for the per- Well, is the person next to you cold?

redirete 1:06:20
1:06:22

Are there other people in the world who are cold?

redirete 1:06:23
1:06:25

What a cold night! I like the cold.

redirete 1:06:25
1:06:28

My God, I never realized. I don't want a blanket. It's fun being cold.

redirete 1:06:29
1:06:32

I can snuggle up against you even more because it's cold.

redirete 1:06:32
1:06:35

All sorts of things occur to you.

redirete 1:06:35
1:06:38

Turn on that electric blanket, and it's like taking a tranquilizer...

redirete 1:06:38
1:06:41

or it's like being lobotomized by watching television.

redirete 1:06:41
1:06:43

I think you enter the dream world again.

redirete 1:06:44
1:06:47

I mean, what does it do to us, Wally, living in an environment...

redirete 1:06:48
1:06:52

where something as massive as the seasons, or winter, or cold...

redirete 1:06:52
1:06:54

don't in any way affect us?

redirete 1:06:54
1:06:56

I mean, we're animals, after all.

redirete 1:06:56
1:06:58

I mean, what does that mean?

redirete 1:06:58
1:07:01

I think that means that instead of living under the sun...

redirete 1:07:01
1:07:04

and the moon and the sky and the stars...

redirete 1:07:04
1:07:07

we're living in a fantasy world of our own making.

redirete 1:07:07
1:07:10

Yeah, but I mean, I would never give up my electric blanket, Andr�.

redirete 1:07:10
1:07:13

I mean, because New York is cold in the winter.

redirete 1:07:13
1:07:16

I mean, our apartment is cold. It's a difficult environment.

redirete 1:07:16
1:07:19

I mean, our lives are tough enough as it is.

redirete 1:07:19
1:07:22

I'm not looking for ways to get rid of the few things that provide relief and comfort.

redirete 1:07:22
1:07:25

I mean, on the contrary, I'm looking for more comfort...

redirete 1:07:25
1:07:28

because, uh, the world is very abrasive.

redirete 1:07:28
1:07:30

I mean, uh, I'm trying to protect myself...

redirete 1:07:30
1:07:34

because, really, there are these abrasive beatings to be avoided everywhere you look.

redirete 1:07:34
1:07:38

But, Wally, don't you - don't you see that comfort can be dangerous?

redirete 1:07:38
1:07:41

I mean, you like to be comfortable, and I like to be comfortable too...

redirete 1:07:41
1:07:45

but comfort can lull you into a dangerous tranquillity.

redirete 1:07:46
1:07:49

I mean, my mother knew a woman, Lady Hatfield...

redirete 1:07:49
1:07:51

who was one of the richest women in the world...

redirete 1:07:51
1:07:54

and she died of starvation because all she would eat was chicken.

redirete 1:07:55
1:07:57

I mean, she just liked chicken, Wally, and that was all she would eat.

redirete 1:07:57
1:08:00

And actually her body was starving, but she didn't know it...

redirete 1:08:01
1:08:04

'cause she was quite happy eating her chicken, and so she finally died.

redirete 1:08:04
1:08:08

See, I honestly believe that we're all like Lady Hatfield now.

redirete 1:08:09
1:08:12

We're having a lovely, comfortable time with our electric blankets and our chicken...

redirete 1:08:13
1:08:16

and meanwhile we're starving because we're so cut off from contact with reality...

redirete 1:08:17
1:08:20

that we're not getting any real sustenance, 'cause we don't see the world.

redirete 1:08:20
1:08:22

We don't see ourselves.

redirete 1:08:22
1:08:25

We don't see how our actions affect other people.

redirete 1:08:25
1:08:28

<i>Have you read Martin Buber's book On Hasidism?</i>

redirete 1:08:28
1:08:30

- No. - Well, here's a view of life.

redirete 1:08:30
1:08:33

I mean, he talks about the belief of the HasidicJews...

redirete 1:08:33
1:08:35

that there are spirits chained in everything.

redirete 1:08:35
1:08:38

There are spirits chained in you. There are spirits chained in me.

redirete 1:08:38
1:08:41

Well, there are spirits chained in this table.

redirete 1:08:41
1:08:46

And that prayer is the action of liberating these enchained embryo-like spirits...

redirete 1:08:46
1:08:48

and that every action of ours in life...

redirete 1:08:48
1:08:51

whether it's, uh, doing business, or making love...

redirete 1:08:51
1:08:53

or having dinner together, or whatever-

redirete 1:08:53
1:08:56

that every action of ours should be a prayer...

redirete 1:08:56
1:08:58

a sacrament in the world.

redirete 1:08:58
1:09:00

Now, do you think we're living like that?

redirete 1:09:00
1:09:02

Why do you think we're not living like that?

redirete 1:09:02
1:09:05

I think it's because if we allowed ourselves to see what we do every day...

redirete 1:09:06
1:09:08

we might just find it too nauseating.

redirete 1:09:08
1:09:10

I mean, the way we treat other people.

redirete 1:09:10
1:09:13

You know, every day, several times a day, I walk into my apartment building.

redirete 1:09:13
1:09:17

The doorman calls me Mr. Gregory, and I call him Jimmy.

redirete 1:09:17
1:09:20

Already, what's the difference between that...

redirete 1:09:20
1:09:23

and the Southern plantation owner who's got slaves?

redirete 1:09:23
1:09:26

You see, I think that an act of murder is committed in that moment...

redirete 1:09:26
1:09:28

when I walk into that building.

redirete 1:09:28
1:09:32

Because here's a dignified, intelligent man - a man of my own age -

redirete 1:09:32
1:09:36

and when I call him Jimmy, then he becomes a child, and I'm an adult...

redirete 1:09:36
1:09:38

because I can buy my way into the building.

redirete 1:09:39
1:09:41

Right. That's right.

redirete 1:09:41
1:09:45

I mean, my God, when I was a Latin teacher...

redirete 1:09:45
1:09:47

I mean, people used to treat me -

redirete 1:09:47
1:09:50

I mean, uh, you know, if I would go to a party...

redirete 1:09:50
1:09:53

of professional or literary people...

redirete 1:09:53
1:09:57

I mean, I was just treated, uh, in the nicest sense of the word...

redirete 1:09:57
1:09:58

uh, like a dog.

redirete 1:09:59
1:10:01

I mean, in other words, there was no question...

redirete 1:10:01
1:10:04

of my being able to participate on an equal basis in a conversation with people.

redirete 1:10:04
1:10:07

I mean, you know, I'd occasionally have conversations with people...

redirete 1:10:07
1:10:10

but then, uh, when they asked what I did...

redirete 1:10:10
1:10:12

which would always happen after about five minutes...

redirete 1:10:12
1:10:14

uh, you know, their faces -

redirete 1:10:14
1:10:18

Even if they were enjoying the conversation, or they were flirting with me, or whatever it was -

redirete 1:10:18
1:10:22

their faces would just have that expression just like the portcullis crashing down.

redirete 1:10:22
1:10:25

You know, those medieval gates. They would just walk away.

redirete 1:10:25
1:10:29

I mean, I literally lived like a dog.

redirete 1:10:29
1:10:32

And I mean, uh, when Debby was working as a secretary, you know...

redirete 1:10:32
1:10:36

if she would tell people what she did, they would just go insane.

redirete 1:10:36
1:10:38

I mean, it would be just as if she'd said, uh...

redirete 1:10:38
1:10:43

''Oh, well, I've been serving a life sentence recently, uh, for child murdering.''

redirete 1:10:44
1:10:48

I mean, my God, you know, when you talk about our attitudes toward other people...

redirete 1:10:50
1:10:52

I mean, I think of myself...

redirete 1:10:52
1:10:56

as just a very decent, good person, you know...

redirete 1:10:56
1:10:58

just because I think I'm reasonably friendly...

redirete 1:10:58
1:11:01

to most of the people I happen to meet every day.

redirete 1:11:01
1:11:03

I mean, I really think of myself quite smugly.

redirete 1:11:03
1:11:07

I just think I'm a perfectly nice guy, uh, you know...

redirete 1:11:07
1:11:10

so long as I think of the world as consisting of, you know...

redirete 1:11:10
1:11:13

just the small circle of the people that I know as friends...

redirete 1:11:13
1:11:16

or the few people that we know in this little world of our little hobbies -

redirete 1:11:16
1:11:18

the theater or whatever it is.

redirete 1:11:18
1:11:21

And I'm really quite self-satisfied. I'm just quite happy with myself.

redirete 1:11:21
1:11:23

I just have no complaint about myself.

redirete 1:11:23
1:11:25

I mean, you know, let's face it.

redirete 1:11:25
1:11:29

I mean, there's a whole enormous world out there that I just don't ever think about.

redirete 1:11:29
1:11:33

I certainly don't take responsibility for how I've lived in that world.

redirete 1:11:33
1:11:36

I mean, you know, if I were actually to sort of confront the fact...

redirete 1:11:36
1:11:38

that I'm sort of sharing this stage...

redirete 1:11:39
1:11:41

with-with-with this starving person in Africa somewhere...

redirete 1:11:41
1:11:44

well, I wouldn't feel so great about myself.

redirete 1:11:44
1:11:49

So naturally I just - I just blot all those people right out of my perception.

redirete 1:11:49
1:11:52

So, of course - of course, I'm ignoring...

redirete 1:11:52
1:11:55

a whole section of the real world.

redirete 1:11:55
1:11:58

But frankly, you know...

redirete 1:11:58
1:12:02

when I write a play, in a way, one of the things I guess I think I'm trying to do...

redirete 1:12:02
1:12:05

is I'm trying to bring myself up against some little bits of reality...

redirete 1:12:06
1:12:09

and I'm trying to share that, uh, with an audience.

redirete 1:12:10
1:12:13

I mean - I mean, of course we all know, uh...

redirete 1:12:13
1:12:16

the theater is, uh, in terrible shape today.

redirete 1:12:16
1:12:20

I mean, uh - I mean, at least a few years ago people who really cared about the theater...

redirete 1:12:20
1:12:23

used to say, ''The theater is dead.''

redirete 1:12:23
1:12:26

And now everybody's redefined the theater in such a trivial way...

redirete 1:12:26
1:12:28

that, I mean - I mean, God...

redirete 1:12:28
1:12:32

I know people who are involved with the theater who go to see things now that -

redirete 1:12:32
1:12:34

I mean, a few years ago these same people...

redirete 1:12:34
1:12:37

would have just been embarrassed to have even seen some of these plays.

redirete 1:12:37
1:12:40

I mean, they would have just shrunk, you know,just in horror...

redirete 1:12:40
1:12:42

at the superficiality of these things.

redirete 1:12:42
1:12:45

But now they say, ''Oh, that was pretty good.''

redirete 1:12:45
1:12:47

It's just incredible.

redirete 1:12:47
1:12:50

And I really just find that attitude unbearable...

redirete 1:12:50
1:12:54

because I really do think the theater can do something very important.

redirete 1:12:54
1:12:59

I mean, I do think the theater can help bring people in contact with reality.

redirete 1:12:59
1:13:04

Now, now, you may not feel that at all. You may just find that totally absurd.

redirete 1:13:05
1:13:08

Yeah, but, Wally, don't you see the dilemma?

redirete 1:13:08
1:13:12

You're not taking into account the period we're living in.

redirete 1:13:12
1:13:14

I mean, of course that's what the theater should do.

redirete 1:13:14
1:13:16

I mean, I've always felt that.

redirete 1:13:17
1:13:20

<i>You know, when I was a young director, and I directed the Bacchae at Yale...</i>

redirete 1:13:20
1:13:23

my impulse, when Pentheus has been killed by his mother and the Furies...

redirete 1:13:23
1:13:26

and they pull the tree back, and they tie him to the tree...

redirete 1:13:26
1:13:29

and fling him into the air, and he flies through space and he's killed...

redirete 1:13:29
1:13:32

and they rip him to shreds and I guess cut off his head -

redirete 1:13:32
1:13:36

my impulse was that the thing to do was to get a head from the New Haven morgue...

redirete 1:13:36
1:13:38

and pass it around the audience.

redirete 1:13:38
1:13:41

Now, I wanted Agawe to bring on a real head...

redirete 1:13:41
1:13:44

and that this head should be passed around the audience...

redirete 1:13:44
1:13:47

so that somehow people realized that this stuff was real, see?

redirete 1:13:47
1:13:50

That it was real stuff.

redirete 1:13:50
1:13:54

- Now, the actress playing Agawe absolutely refused to do it. - [ Giggling ]

redirete 1:13:54
1:13:56

You know, Gordon Craig used to talk about...

redirete 1:13:56
1:14:00

why is there gold or silver in the churches or something - the great cathedrals -

redirete 1:14:00
1:14:04

when actors could be wearing gold and silver?

redirete 1:14:04
1:14:08

And I mean, people who saw Eleonora Duse in the last couple of years of her life, Wally-

redirete 1:14:08
1:14:11

people said that is was like seeing light on stage, or mist...

redirete 1:14:11
1:14:13

or the essence of something.

redirete 1:14:13
1:14:16

I mean, then when you think about Bertolt Brecht -

redirete 1:14:16
1:14:19

He somehow created a theater in which people could observe...

redirete 1:14:19
1:14:22

that was vastly entertaining and exciting...

redirete 1:14:22
1:14:25

but in which the excitement didn't overwhelm you.

redirete 1:14:25
1:14:29

He somehow allowed you the distance between the play and yourself...

redirete 1:14:29
1:14:32

that, in fact, two human beings need in order to live together.

redirete 1:14:32
1:14:36

You know, the question is whether the theater now can do for an audience...

redirete 1:14:36
1:14:40

what Brecht tried to do or what Craig or Duse tried to do.

redirete 1:14:40
1:14:42

Can it do it now?

redirete 1:14:42
1:14:45

'Cause, you see, I think that people today are so deeply asleep...

redirete 1:14:45
1:14:48

that unless, you know, you're putting on those sort of superficial plays...

redirete 1:14:48
1:14:50

that just help your audience to sleep more comfortably...

redirete 1:14:50
1:14:53

it's very hard to know what to do in the theater.

redirete 1:14:53
1:14:55

<i>[ People Chattering, Laughing ]</i>

redirete 1:14:55
1:15:00

Because, you see, I think that if you put on serious, contemporary plays...

redirete 1:15:00
1:15:02

by writers like yourself...

redirete 1:15:02
1:15:05

you may only be helping to deaden the audience in a different way.

redirete 1:15:05
1:15:07

What do you mean?

redirete 1:15:07
1:15:09

Well, I mean, Wally...

redirete 1:15:09
1:15:13

how does it affect an audience to put on one of these plays...

redirete 1:15:13
1:15:16

in which you show that people are totally isolated now...

redirete 1:15:16
1:15:19

and they can't reach each other, and their lives are desperate?

redirete 1:15:19
1:15:23

Or how does it affect them to see a play that shows that our world...

redirete 1:15:23
1:15:27

is full of nothing but shocking sexual events, and terror, and violence?

redirete 1:15:27
1:15:29

Does that help to wake up a sleeping audience?

redirete 1:15:29
1:15:32

See, I don't think so, 'cause I think it's very likely...

redirete 1:15:33
1:15:36

that the picture of the world that you're showing them in a play like that...

redirete 1:15:36
1:15:39

is exactly the picture of the world they have already.

redirete 1:15:39
1:15:42

I mean, you know, they know their own lives and relationships...

redirete 1:15:42
1:15:44

are difficult and painful.

redirete 1:15:44
1:15:46

And if they watch the evening news on television...

redirete 1:15:46
1:15:49

well, there what they see is a terrifying, chaotic universe...

redirete 1:15:49
1:15:53

full of rapes and murders and hands cut off by subway cars...

redirete 1:15:53
1:15:57

and children pushing their parents out of windows.

redirete 1:15:57
1:16:00

So the play tells them that their impression of the world is correct...

redirete 1:16:00
1:16:02

and that there's absolutely no way out.

redirete 1:16:03
1:16:04

There's nothing they can do.

redirete 1:16:05
1:16:07

And they end up feeling passive and impotent.

redirete 1:16:08
1:16:10

I mean, look- look, at something like that christening...

redirete 1:16:10
1:16:12

that my group arranged for me in the forest in Poland.

redirete 1:16:13
1:16:16

Well, there was an example of something that really had all the elements of theater.

redirete 1:16:16
1:16:19

It was worked on carefully. It was thought about carefully.

redirete 1:16:19
1:16:21

It was done with exquisite taste and magic.

redirete 1:16:21
1:16:24

And they, in fact, created something...

redirete 1:16:24
1:16:27

which, in this case, was, in a way, just for an audience of one -just for me.

redirete 1:16:27
1:16:31

But they created something that had ritual, love, surprise...

redirete 1:16:31
1:16:33

denouement, beginning, a middle and end...

redirete 1:16:33
1:16:37

and was an incredibly beautiful piece of theater.

redirete 1:16:37
1:16:39

And the impact that it had on its audience - on me -

redirete 1:16:39
1:16:41

was somehow a totally positive one.

redirete 1:16:42
1:16:44

It didn't deaden me. It brought me to life.

redirete 1:16:47
1:16:49

Yeah, but I mean, are you saying that it's impossible -

redirete 1:16:49
1:16:53

I mean, uh - I mean - I mean, uh, isn't it a little upsetting...

redirete 1:16:54
1:16:57

to come to the conclusion that there's no way to wake people up anymore...

redirete 1:16:57
1:17:02

except to involve them in some kind of a strange, uh, christening in Poland...

redirete 1:17:02
1:17:04

or some kind of a strange experience on top of Mount Everest?

redirete 1:17:05
1:17:09

I mean, uh, because, uh, you know that the awful thing is...

redirete 1:17:09
1:17:11

if you really say that it's-it's necessary...

redirete 1:17:11
1:17:14

to, uh, take everybody to, uh, Everest...

redirete 1:17:14
1:17:18

it's really tough, because everybody can't be taken to Everest.

redirete 1:17:18
1:17:21

I mean, there must have been periods in history when it would have been possible...

redirete 1:17:21
1:17:24

to, uh, save the patient through less drastic measures.

redirete 1:17:24
1:17:27

I mean, there must have been periods when in order to give people...

redirete 1:17:27
1:17:29

a strong or meaningful experience...

redirete 1:17:29
1:17:32

you wouldn't actually have to take them to Everest.

redirete 1:17:32
1:17:35

But you do now. In some way or other, you do now.

redirete 1:17:35
1:17:37

You know, there was a time when you could have just, for instance, written...

redirete 1:17:38
1:17:41

<i>I don't know, uh, Sense and Sensibility byJane Austen.</i>

redirete 1:17:41
1:17:45

And I'm sure the people who read it had a pretty strong experience. I'm sure they did.

redirete 1:17:45
1:17:47

I mean, all right, now you're saying that people today wouldn't get it.

redirete 1:17:48
1:17:51

Maybe that's true. But I mean, isn't there any kind of writing or any kind of a play-

redirete 1:17:51
1:17:54

I mean, isn't it still legitimate for writers...

redirete 1:17:54
1:17:57

to try to portray reality so that people can see it?

redirete 1:17:57
1:18:01

I mean, really, tell me, why do we require a trip to Mount Everest...

redirete 1:18:01
1:18:04

in order to be able to perceive one moment of reality?

redirete 1:18:04
1:18:07

I mean - I mean, is Mount Everest more real than New York?

redirete 1:18:07
1:18:09

I mean, isn't New York real?

redirete 1:18:09
1:18:13

I mean, you see, I think if you could become fully aware...

redirete 1:18:13
1:18:16

of what existed in the cigar store next door to this restaurant...

redirete 1:18:17
1:18:19

I think it would just blow your brains out.

redirete 1:18:19
1:18:21

I mean - I mean, isn't there just as much reality to be perceived...

redirete 1:18:21
1:18:23

in a cigar store as there is on Mount Everest?

redirete 1:18:23
1:18:25

I mean, what do you think?

redirete 1:18:25
1:18:28

I think that not only is there nothing more real about Mount Everest...

redirete 1:18:28
1:18:30

I think there's nothing that different, in a certain way.

redirete 1:18:30
1:18:32

I mean, because reality is uniform, in a way...

redirete 1:18:33
1:18:35

so that if your- if your perceptions are -

redirete 1:18:35
1:18:37

I mean, if your own mechanism is operating correctly...

redirete 1:18:38
1:18:41

it would become irrelevant to go to Mount Everest, and sort of absurd...

redirete 1:18:41
1:18:44

because, I mean - it just - I mean, of course, on some level, I mean...

redirete 1:18:44
1:18:47

obviously it's very different from a cigar store on 7 th Avenue.

redirete 1:18:48
1:18:51

- But I mean - - Well, I agree with you, Wally.

redirete 1:18:51
1:18:53

But the problem is that people can't see the cigar store now.

redirete 1:18:54
1:18:56

I mean, things don't affect people the way they used to.

redirete 1:18:56
1:18:59

I mean, it may very well be that 1 0 years from now...

redirete 1:18:59
1:19:01

people will pay $1 0,000 in cash to be castrated...

redirete 1:19:02
1:19:04

just in order to be affected by something.

redirete 1:19:06
1:19:09

Well, why-why do you think that is? I mean, why is that?

redirete 1:19:09
1:19:13

I mean, is it just because people are lazy today, or they're bored?

redirete 1:19:14
1:19:17

I mean, are we just like bored, spoiled children...

redirete 1:19:17
1:19:19

who've just been lying in the bathtub all day...

redirete 1:19:19
1:19:22

just playing with their plastic duck...

redirete 1:19:22
1:19:25

and now they're just thinking, ''Well, what can I do?''

redirete 1:19:27
1:19:29

Okay. Yes. We're bored.

redirete 1:19:30
1:19:31

We're all bored now.

redirete 1:19:32
1:19:34

But has it every occurred to you, Wally, that the process...

redirete 1:19:34
1:19:36

that creates this boredom that we see in the world now...

redirete 1:19:36
1:19:41

may very well be a self-perpetuating, unconscious form of brainwashing...

redirete 1:19:41
1:19:44

created by a world totalitarian government based on money...

redirete 1:19:44
1:19:47

and that all of this is much more dangerous than one thinks...

redirete 1:19:47
1:19:50

and it's not just a question of individual survival, Wally...

redirete 1:19:50
1:19:52

but that somebody who's bored is asleep...

redirete 1:19:52
1:19:56

and somebody who's asleep will not say no?

redirete 1:19:56
1:19:58

See, I keep meeting these people - I mean, uh,just a few days ago...

redirete 1:19:59
1:20:01

I met this man whom I greatly admire.

redirete 1:20:01
1:20:03

He's a Swedish physicist. Gustav Bj�rnstrand.

redirete 1:20:03
1:20:06

And he told me that he no longer watches television...

redirete 1:20:06
1:20:09

he doesn't read newspapers, and he doesn't read magazines.

redirete 1:20:09
1:20:11

He's completely cut them out of his life...

redirete 1:20:11
1:20:16

because he really does feel that we're living in some kind of Orwellian nightmare now...

redirete 1:20:16
1:20:20

and that everything that you hear now contributes to turning you into a robot.

redirete 1:20:21
1:20:24

<i>And when I was at Findhorn, I met this extraordinary English tree expert...</i>

redirete 1:20:24
1:20:27

who had devoted his life to saving trees.

redirete 1:20:27
1:20:29

Just got back from Washington, lobbying to save the redwoods.

redirete 1:20:29
1:20:32

He's 84 years old, and he always travels with a backpack...

redirete 1:20:32
1:20:34

'cause he never knows where he's gonna be tomorrow.

redirete 1:20:34
1:20:37

And when I met him at Findhorn, he said to me, ''Where are you from?''

redirete 1:20:37
1:20:40

I said, ''New York.'' He said, ''Ah, New York. Yes, that's a very interesting place.

redirete 1:20:40
1:20:44

Do you know a lot of New Yorkers who keep talking about the fact that they want to leave, but never do?''

redirete 1:20:44
1:20:47

And I said, ''Oh, yes.'' And he said, ''Why do you think they don't leave?''

redirete 1:20:47
1:20:51

I gave him different banal theories. He said, ''Oh, I don't think it's that way at all.''

redirete 1:20:51
1:20:56

He said, ''I think that New York is the new model for the new concentration camp...

redirete 1:20:56
1:20:58

''where the camp has been built by the inmates themselves...

redirete 1:20:58
1:21:02

''and the inmates are the guards, and they have this pride in this thing they've built.

redirete 1:21:02
1:21:04

''They've built their own prison.

redirete 1:21:04
1:21:06

''And so they exist in a state of schizophrenia...

redirete 1:21:06
1:21:08

''where they are both guards and prisoners.

redirete 1:21:08
1:21:11

''And as a result, they no longer have - having been lobotomized -

redirete 1:21:12
1:21:14

''the capacity to leave the prison they've made...

redirete 1:21:14
1:21:17

or to even see it as a prison.''

redirete 1:21:17
1:21:20

And then he went into his pocket, and he took out a seed for a tree...

redirete 1:21:20
1:21:22

and he said, ''This is a pine tree.''

redirete 1:21:22
1:21:26

He put it in my hand and he said, ''Escape before it's too late.''

redirete 1:21:27
1:21:30

<i>See, actually, for two or three years now...</i>

redirete 1:21:30
1:21:34

Chiquita and I have had this very unpleasant feeling that we really should get out.

redirete 1:21:34
1:21:37

We really feel likeJews in Germany in the late '30s.

redirete 1:21:37
1:21:39

Get out of here.

redirete 1:21:39
1:21:41

Of course, the problem is where to go.

redirete 1:21:41
1:21:46

'Cause it seems quite obvious that the whole world is going in the same direction.

redirete 1:21:48
1:21:52

See, I think it's quite possible that the 1 960s...

redirete 1:21:52
1:21:56

represented the last burst of the human being before he was extinguished...

redirete 1:21:56
1:21:59

and that this is the beginning of the rest of the future, now...

redirete 1:21:59
1:22:03

and that from now on there'll simply be all these robots walking around...

redirete 1:22:03
1:22:06

feeling nothing, thinking nothing.

redirete 1:22:06
1:22:09

And there'll be nobody left almost to remind them...

redirete 1:22:09
1:22:12

that there once was a species called a human being...

redirete 1:22:12
1:22:14

with feelings and thoughts...

redirete 1:22:14
1:22:17

and that history and memory are right now being erased...

redirete 1:22:17
1:22:20

and soon nobody will really remember...

redirete 1:22:20
1:22:22

that life existed on the planet.

redirete 1:22:24
1:22:29

Now, of course, Bj�rnstrand feels that there's really almost no hope...

redirete 1:22:29
1:22:32

and that we're probably going back to a very savage...

redirete 1:22:32
1:22:35

lawless, terrifying period.

redirete 1:22:35
1:22:38

Findhorn people see it a little differently.

redirete 1:22:38
1:22:41

They're feeling that there'll be these pockets of light...

redirete 1:22:41
1:22:43

springing up in different parts of the world...

redirete 1:22:43
1:22:47

and that these will be, in a way, invisible planets on this planet...

redirete 1:22:47
1:22:50

and that as we, or the world, grow colder...

redirete 1:22:50
1:22:53

we can take invisible space journeys to these different planets...

redirete 1:22:54
1:22:57

refuel for what it is we need to do on the planet itself...

redirete 1:22:57
1:22:59

and come back.

redirete 1:23:00
1:23:02

And it's their feeling that there have to be centers now...

redirete 1:23:02
1:23:07

where people can come and reconstruct a new future for the world.

redirete 1:23:07
1:23:09

And when I was talking to, uh, Gustav Bj�rnstrand...

redirete 1:23:09
1:23:12

he was saying that actually these centers are growing up everywhere now...

redirete 1:23:12
1:23:15

and that what they're trying to do, which is what Findhorn was trying to do...

redirete 1:23:15
1:23:18

and, in a way, what I was trying to do -

redirete 1:23:18
1:23:20

I mean, these things can't be given names...

redirete 1:23:20
1:23:24

but in a way, these are all attempts at creating a new kind of school...

redirete 1:23:24
1:23:27

or a new kind of monastery.

redirete 1:23:27
1:23:29

And Bj�rnstrand talks about the concept of''reserves'' -

redirete 1:23:29
1:23:32

islands of safety where history can be remembered...

redirete 1:23:32
1:23:35

and the human being can continue to function...

redirete 1:23:35
1:23:38

in order to maintain the species through a dark age.

redirete 1:23:41
1:23:43

In other words, we're talking about an underground...

redirete 1:23:43
1:23:46

which did exist in a different way during the Dark Ages...

redirete 1:23:46
1:23:48

among the mystical orders of the church.

redirete 1:23:49
1:23:51

And the purpose of this underground...

redirete 1:23:51
1:23:56

is to find out how to preserve the light, life, the culture...

redirete 1:23:56
1:23:59

<i>how to keep things living.</i>

redirete 1:24:00
1:24:02

You see, I keep thinking that what we need...

redirete 1:24:03
1:24:05

is a new language -

redirete 1:24:05
1:24:08

a language of the heart...

redirete 1:24:08
1:24:12

a language, as in the Polish forest, where language wasn't needed.

redirete 1:24:12
1:24:17

Some kind of language between people that is a new kind of poetry...

redirete 1:24:17
1:24:21

that's the poetry of the dancing bee that tells us where the honey is.

redirete 1:24:21
1:24:24

And I think that in order to create that language...

redirete 1:24:25
1:24:28

you're going to have to learn how you can go through a looking glass...

redirete 1:24:28
1:24:30

into another kind of perception...

redirete 1:24:30
1:24:35

where you have that sense of being united to all things...

redirete 1:24:35
1:24:38

and suddenly you understand everything.

redirete 1:24:43
1:24:47

<i>[ Siren Wailing In Distance]</i>

redirete 1:24:48
1:24:50

Are you ready for some dessert?

redirete 1:24:50
1:24:52

Uh, I think I'll just have an espresso. Thank you.

redirete 1:24:52
1:24:56

- Very good. - I'll - I'll also have one. Thank you.

redirete 1:24:56
1:25:00

And -And, uh, could I also have, uh, an amaretto?

redirete 1:25:00
1:25:02

Certainly, sir.

redirete 1:25:02
1:25:05

Thank you.

redirete 1:25:05
1:25:09

You see, Wally, there's this incredible building that they built at Findhorn.

redirete 1:25:09
1:25:12

And the man who designed it had never designed anything in his life.

redirete 1:25:12
1:25:14

He wrote children's books.

redirete 1:25:14
1:25:17

And some people wanted it to be a sort of hall of meditation...

redirete 1:25:17
1:25:19

and others wanted it to be a kind of lecture hall.

redirete 1:25:19
1:25:24

But the psychic part of the community wanted it to serve another function as well...

redirete 1:25:24
1:25:27

because they wanted it to be a kind of spaceship which at night could rise up...

redirete 1:25:27
1:25:30

and let the U.F.O.'s know that this was a safe place to land...

redirete 1:25:30
1:25:32

and that they would find friends there.

redirete 1:25:32
1:25:36

So, the problem was - 'cause it needed a massive kind of roof-

redirete 1:25:36
1:25:39

was how to have a roof that would stay on the building...

redirete 1:25:39
1:25:43

but at the same time be able to fly up at night and meet the flying saucers.

redirete 1:25:43
1:25:46

So, the architect meditated and meditated...

redirete 1:25:46
1:25:49

and he finally came up with the very simple solution...

redirete 1:25:49
1:25:51

of not actually joining the roof to the building...

redirete 1:25:51
1:25:53

which means that it should fall off...

redirete 1:25:53
1:25:56

because they have great gales up in northern Scotland.

redirete 1:25:56
1:26:00

So, to keep it from falling off, he got beach stones from the beach -

redirete 1:26:00
1:26:03

or we did, 'cause I-I worked on this building -

redirete 1:26:03
1:26:05

all up and down the roof, just like that.

redirete 1:26:05
1:26:09

And the idea was that the energy that would flow from stone to stone...

redirete 1:26:09
1:26:11

would be so strong, you see...

redirete 1:26:11
1:26:15

that it would keep the roof down under any conditions...

redirete 1:26:15
1:26:19

but at the same time, if the roof needed to go up, it would be light enough to go up.

redirete 1:26:19
1:26:23

Well - [ Chuckling ] it works, you see.

redirete 1:26:23
1:26:26

Now, architects don't know why it works...

redirete 1:26:26
1:26:28

and it shouldn't work, 'cause it should fall off.

redirete 1:26:28
1:26:30

But it works. It does work.

redirete 1:26:30
1:26:34

The gales blow, and the roof should fall off, but it doesn't fall off.

redirete 1:26:35
1:26:37

<i>[ Man Coughing ]</i>

redirete 1:26:38
1:26:40

Yep.

redirete 1:26:40
1:26:42

Well, uh...

redirete 1:26:43
1:26:46

do you want to know my actual response to all this?

redirete 1:26:46
1:26:48

- Do you want to hear my actual response? - Yes!

redirete 1:26:50
1:26:53

See, my actual response - I mean -

redirete 1:26:53
1:26:58

[ Laughing ] I mean - I mean, I'm just trying to - to survive, you know?

redirete 1:26:58
1:27:01

I mean, I'm just trying to earn a living...

redirete 1:27:01
1:27:04

just trying to pay my rent and my bills.

redirete 1:27:04
1:27:06

I mean, uh -

redirete 1:27:06
1:27:10

Ah, I live my life.

redirete 1:27:10
1:27:13

I enjoy staying home with Debby.

redirete 1:27:13
1:27:16

I'm reading Charlton Heston's autobiography.

redirete 1:27:16
1:27:17

And that's that.

redirete 1:27:18
1:27:20

I mean, you know - I mean, occasionally, maybe...

redirete 1:27:21
1:27:25

Debby and I will step outside, we'll go to a party or something.

redirete 1:27:25
1:27:29

And if I can occasionally get my little talent together and write a little play...

redirete 1:27:29
1:27:31

well, then that's just - that's just wonderful.

redirete 1:27:31
1:27:34

And I mean, I enjoy reading about other little plays people have written...

redirete 1:27:34
1:27:37

and reading the reviews of those plays and what people said about them...

redirete 1:27:37
1:27:41

and what people said about what people said.

redirete 1:27:41
1:27:45

And I mean, I have - I have a list of errands and responsibilities that I keep in a notebook.

redirete 1:27:45
1:27:48

I enjoy going through the notebook...

redirete 1:27:48
1:27:50

carrying out the responsibilities, doing the errands...

redirete 1:27:50
1:27:54

and crossing them off the list.

redirete 1:27:54
1:27:58

And, I mean, I just - I just don't know how anybody could enjoy anything more...

redirete 1:27:58
1:28:03

than I enjoy, uh, reading Charlton Heston's autobiography...

redirete 1:28:03
1:28:05

or, uh, you know, uh, getting up in the morning...

redirete 1:28:06
1:28:09

and having the cup of cold coffee that's been waiting for me all night...

redirete 1:28:09
1:28:12

still there for me to drink in the morning...

redirete 1:28:12
1:28:15

and no cockroach or fly has-has died in it overnight.

redirete 1:28:15
1:28:18

I mean, I'm just so thrilled when I get up...

redirete 1:28:18
1:28:21

and I see that coffee there, just the way I wanted it.

redirete 1:28:22
1:28:24

I mean, I just can't imagine...

redirete 1:28:24
1:28:27

how anybody could enjoy something else any more than that.

redirete 1:28:27
1:28:30

<i>I mean - I mean, obviously, if the cockroach - if there is a dead cockroach in it...</i>

redirete 1:28:31
1:28:33

well, then I just have a feeling of disappointment, and I'm sad.

redirete 1:28:33
1:28:37

But I mean, I - I just - I just don't think...

redirete 1:28:37
1:28:39

I feel the need for anything more than all this.

redirete 1:28:39
1:28:42

Whereas, you know, you seem to be saying...

redirete 1:28:42
1:28:45

that, uh...

redirete 1:28:45
1:28:48

it's inconceivable that anybody could be having a meaningful life today...

redirete 1:28:48
1:28:50

and, you know, everyone is totally destroyed...

redirete 1:28:50
1:28:53

and we all need to live in these outposts.

redirete 1:28:53
1:28:56

But I mean, you know, I just can't believe - even for you -

redirete 1:28:56
1:28:59

I mean, don't you find - Isn't it pleasant just to get up in the morning...

redirete 1:28:59
1:29:03

<i>and there's Chiquita, there are the children...</i>

redirete 1:29:03
1:29:05

<i>and The Times is delivered, you can read it.</i>

redirete 1:29:05
1:29:08

I mean, maybe you'll direct a play, maybe you won't direct a play.

redirete 1:29:08
1:29:11

But forget about the play that you may or may not direct.

redirete 1:29:11
1:29:16

Why is it necessary to -Why not lean back and just enjoy these details?

redirete 1:29:16
1:29:20

I mean, and there'd be a delicious cup of coffee and a piece of coffeecake.

redirete 1:29:20
1:29:23

I mean, why is it necessary to have more than this...

redirete 1:29:23
1:29:25

or to even think about having more than this?

redirete 1:29:26
1:29:29

I mean, I don't really know what you're talking about.

redirete 1:29:30
1:29:33

I mean - I mean, I know what you're talking about...

redirete 1:29:33
1:29:36

<i>but I don't really know what you're talking about.</i>

redirete 1:29:36
1:29:39

And I mean, you know, even if I were to totally agree with you, you know...

redirete 1:29:39
1:29:42

and even if I were to accept the idea that there's just no way for anybody...

redirete 1:29:42
1:29:44

to have personal happiness now...

redirete 1:29:45
1:29:47

well, you know, I still couldn't accept the idea...

redirete 1:29:47
1:29:50

that the way to make life wonderful would be to just totally...

redirete 1:29:50
1:29:52

you know, reject Western civilization...

redirete 1:29:52
1:29:55

and fall back into some kind of belief in some kind of weird something -

redirete 1:29:56
1:29:58

I mean, I don't even know how to begin talking about this...

redirete 1:29:58
1:30:01

but you know, in the Middle Ages...

redirete 1:30:02
1:30:05

before the arrival of scientific thinking as we know it today...

redirete 1:30:05
1:30:08

well, people could believe anything.

redirete 1:30:08
1:30:10

Anything could be true - the statue of the Virgin Mary...

redirete 1:30:10
1:30:12

could speak or bleed or whatever it was.

redirete 1:30:12
1:30:14

But the wonderful thing that happened...

redirete 1:30:15
1:30:18

was that then in the development of science in the Western world...

redirete 1:30:18
1:30:22

certain things did come slowly to be known and understood.

redirete 1:30:22
1:30:25

I mean, you know...

redirete 1:30:25
1:30:29

obviously, all ideas in science are constantly being revised.

redirete 1:30:29
1:30:31

I mean, that's the whole point.

redirete 1:30:31
1:30:36

But we do at least know that the universe has some shape and order...

redirete 1:30:36
1:30:40

and that, uh, you know, trees do not turn into people or goddesses...

redirete 1:30:40
1:30:43

and there are very good reasons why they don't...

redirete 1:30:43
1:30:45

and you can't just believe absolutely anything.

redirete 1:30:45
1:30:47

Whereas, the things that you're talking about -

redirete 1:30:47
1:30:51

I mean - I mean, you found the handprint in the book...

redirete 1:30:51
1:30:55

and there were - there were three Andr�s and one Antoine de Saint-Exup�ry.

redirete 1:30:55
1:30:58

And to me that is a coincidence.

redirete 1:30:58
1:31:01

But -And-And then, you know, the people who put that book together...

redirete 1:31:01
1:31:03

well, they had their own reasons for putting it together.

redirete 1:31:03
1:31:06

But to you it was significant, as if that book had been written 40 years ago...

redirete 1:31:06
1:31:10

so that you would see it, as if it was planned for you, in a way.

redirete 1:31:10
1:31:12

I mean, really- I mean -

redirete 1:31:13
1:31:17

I mean, all right, let's say, if I get a fortune cookie in a Chinese restaurant...

redirete 1:31:17
1:31:19

I mean, of course, even I have a tendency-

redirete 1:31:19
1:31:22

I mean, you know - I mean, of course, I would hardly throw it out.

redirete 1:31:22
1:31:25

I mean, I read it. I read it, and - and, uh -

redirete 1:31:25
1:31:29

I just instinctively sort of- You know, if it says something like, uh...

redirete 1:31:29
1:31:32

''A conversation with a dark-haired man will be very important for you''...

redirete 1:31:32
1:31:35

well, I just instinctively think, you know, ''Who do I know who has dark hair?

redirete 1:31:35
1:31:38

Did we have a conversation? What did we talk about?''

redirete 1:31:38
1:31:43

In other words, uh, there's something in me that makes me read it...

redirete 1:31:43
1:31:46

and I instinctively interpret it as if it were an omen of the future.

redirete 1:31:46
1:31:50

But in my conscious opinion, which is so fundamental to my whole view of life -

redirete 1:31:50
1:31:53

I mean, I would just have to change totally to not have this opinion.

redirete 1:31:53
1:31:55

In my conscious opinion, this is simply something...

redirete 1:31:55
1:32:00

that was written in the cookie factory several years ago and in no way refers to me.

redirete 1:32:00
1:32:02

I mean, you know, the - the fact that I got it -

redirete 1:32:03
1:32:05

I mean, the man who wrote it did not know anything about me.

redirete 1:32:05
1:32:07

I mean, he could not have known anything about me.

redirete 1:32:07
1:32:10

There's no way that this cookie could actually have to do with me.

redirete 1:32:10
1:32:13

And the fact that I've gotten it is just basically a joke.

redirete 1:32:13
1:32:16

And I mean, if I were gonna go on a trip on an airplane...

redirete 1:32:16
1:32:18

and I got a fortune cookie that said ''Don't go''...

redirete 1:32:18
1:32:22

I mean, of course, I admit I might feel a bit nervous for about one second.

redirete 1:32:22
1:32:24

But in fact, I would go because, I mean...

redirete 1:32:24
1:32:27

that trip is gonna be successful or unsuccessful...

redirete 1:32:27
1:32:29

based on the state of the airplane and the state of the pilot.

redirete 1:32:30
1:32:32

And the cookie is in no position to know about that.

redirete 1:32:32
1:32:34

And I mean, you know, it's the same...

redirete 1:32:34
1:32:37

with any kind of, uh, prophecy, or a sign, or an omen.

redirete 1:32:37
1:32:42

Because if you believe in omens, then that means that the universe -

redirete 1:32:42
1:32:44

I mean, I don't even know how to begin to describe this.

redirete 1:32:44
1:32:48

That means that the future is somehow sending messages...

redirete 1:32:48
1:32:50

backwards to the present.

redirete 1:32:50
1:32:53

Which-Which means that the future must exist in some sense already...

redirete 1:32:53
1:32:56

in order to be able to send these messages.

redirete 1:32:56
1:33:01

And it also means that things in the universe are there for a purpose - to give us messages.

redirete 1:33:01
1:33:03

Whereas I think that things in the universe are just there.

redirete 1:33:03
1:33:05

I mean, they don't mean anything.

redirete 1:33:05
1:33:10

I mean, you know, if the turtle's egg falls out of the tree and splashes on the paving stones...

redirete 1:33:10
1:33:13

it's just because that turtle was clumsy- by accident.

redirete 1:33:13
1:33:17

And-And to decide whether to send my ships off to war on the basis of that...

redirete 1:33:17
1:33:19

seems a big mistake to me.

redirete 1:33:19
1:33:23

Well, what information would you send your ships to war on?

redirete 1:33:23
1:33:25

Because if it's all meaningless...

redirete 1:33:25
1:33:27

what's the difference whether you accept the fortune cookie...

redirete 1:33:27
1:33:29

or the statistics of the Ford Foundation?

redirete 1:33:29
1:33:31

It doesn't seem to matter.

redirete 1:33:31
1:33:35

Well, the meaningless fact of the fortune cookie or the turtle's egg...

redirete 1:33:35
1:33:39

can't possibly have any relevance to the subject you're analyzing.

redirete 1:33:39
1:33:42

Whereas a group of meaningless facts that are collected and interpreted...

redirete 1:33:43
1:33:46

in a scientific way may quite possibly be relevant.

redirete 1:33:46
1:33:49

Because the wonderful thing about scientific theories about things...

redirete 1:33:49
1:33:52

is that they're based on experiments that can be repeated.

redirete 1:33:54
1:33:55

Hmm.

redirete 1:34:10
1:34:12

Well, it's true, Wally.

redirete 1:34:13
1:34:15

I mean, you know, following omens and so on...

redirete 1:34:15
1:34:18

is probably just a way of letting ourselves off the hook...

redirete 1:34:18
1:34:23

so that we don't have to take individual responsibility for our own actions.

redirete 1:34:23
1:34:25

But I mean, giving yourself over to the unconscious...

redirete 1:34:25
1:34:30

can leave you vulnerable to all sorts of very frightening manipulation.

redirete 1:34:30
1:34:34

And in all the work that I was involved in, there was always that danger.

redirete 1:34:34
1:34:37

And there was always that question of tampering with people's lives...

redirete 1:34:38
1:34:41

because if I lead one of these workshops, then I do become partly a doctor...

redirete 1:34:41
1:34:43

and partly a therapist, and partly a priest.

redirete 1:34:43
1:34:48

And I'm not a doctor, or a therapist, or a priest.

redirete 1:34:48
1:34:51

And already some of these new monasteries...

redirete 1:34:51
1:34:53

or communities or whatever we've been talking about...

redirete 1:34:53
1:34:55

are becoming institutionalized...

redirete 1:34:55
1:34:59

and I guess even in a way, at times, sort of fascistic.

redirete 1:34:59
1:35:03

You know, there's a sort of self-satisfied elitist paranoia that grows up -

redirete 1:35:03
1:35:06

a feeling of''them'' and ''us'' - that is very unsettling.

redirete 1:35:06
1:35:10

But I mean, uh, the thing is, Wally, I think it's the exaggerated worship of science...

redirete 1:35:10
1:35:12

that has led us into this situation.

redirete 1:35:12
1:35:15

I mean, science has been held up to us as a magical force...

redirete 1:35:15
1:35:17

that would somehow solve everything.

redirete 1:35:17
1:35:19

Well, quite the contrary. It's done quite the contrary.

redirete 1:35:19
1:35:21

It's destroyed everything.

redirete 1:35:22
1:35:23

So that is what has really led, I think...

redirete 1:35:24
1:35:28

to this very strong, deep reaction against science that we're seeing now...

redirete 1:35:28
1:35:30

just as the Nazi demons that were released in the '30s in Germany...

redirete 1:35:30
1:35:34

were probably a reaction against a certain oppressive kind of knowledge...

redirete 1:35:34
1:35:37

and culture and rational thinking.

redirete 1:35:37
1:35:40

So I agree that we're talking about something potentially very dangerous.

redirete 1:35:41
1:35:44

But modern science has not been particularly less dangerous.

redirete 1:35:44
1:35:46

Right. Well, I agree with you.

redirete 1:35:46
1:35:48

I completely agree.

redirete 1:35:50
1:35:52

No, you know, the truth is...

redirete 1:35:52
1:35:56

I think I do know what really disturbs me about the work you've described...

redirete 1:35:57
1:36:00

and I don't even know if I can express it.

redirete 1:36:00
1:36:04

But somehow it seems that the whole point of the work that you did in those workshops...

redirete 1:36:04
1:36:08

when you get right down to it and you ask what was it really about -

redirete 1:36:08
1:36:10

The whole point, really, I think...

redirete 1:36:10
1:36:13

was to enable the people in the workshops, including yourself...

redirete 1:36:13
1:36:17

to somehow sort of strip away every scrap of purposefulness...

redirete 1:36:17
1:36:20

from certain selected moments.

redirete 1:36:20
1:36:23

And the point of it was so that you would then all be able to experience...

redirete 1:36:23
1:36:27

somehow just pure being.

redirete 1:36:27
1:36:31

In other words, you were trying to discover what it would be like to live for certain moments...

redirete 1:36:31
1:36:34

without having any particular thing that you were supposed to be doing.

redirete 1:36:34
1:36:36

And I think I just simply object to that.

redirete 1:36:36
1:36:39

I mean, I just don't think I accept the idea that there should be moments...

redirete 1:36:39
1:36:42

in which you're not trying to do anything.

redirete 1:36:42
1:36:46

<i>[ Chuckling ] I think, uh, it's our nature, uh, to do things.</i>

redirete 1:36:46
1:36:48

I think we should do things.

redirete 1:36:48
1:36:50

I think that, uh, purposefulness...

redirete 1:36:50
1:36:54

is part of our ineradicable basic human structure.

redirete 1:36:54
1:36:57

And to say that we ought to be able to live without it...

redirete 1:36:57
1:37:01

is like saying that, uh, a tree ought to be able to live without branches or roots.

redirete 1:37:01
1:37:04

But - But actually, without branches or roots, it wouldn't be a tree.

redirete 1:37:04
1:37:07

I mean, it would just be a log. Do you see what I'm saying?

redirete 1:37:07
1:37:09

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

redirete 1:37:09
1:37:12

I mean, in other words, if I'm sitting at home and I have nothing to do...

redirete 1:37:12
1:37:14

well, I naturally reach for a book.

redirete 1:37:14
1:37:18

I mean, what would be so great about just sitting there and, uh, doing nothing?

redirete 1:37:18
1:37:20

It just seems absurd.

redirete 1:37:20
1:37:22

And if Debby is there?

redirete 1:37:23
1:37:25

Well, that's just the same thing.

redirete 1:37:25
1:37:28

I mean, is there really such a thing as, uh...

redirete 1:37:28
1:37:32

two people doing nothing but just being together?

redirete 1:37:32
1:37:34

I mean, would they simply then...

redirete 1:37:34
1:37:37

be, uh, ''relating,'' to use the word we're always using?

redirete 1:37:37
1:37:39

I mean, what would that mean?

redirete 1:37:39
1:37:41

I mean, either we're gonna have a conversation...

redirete 1:37:41
1:37:43

or we're going to, uh, carry out the garbage...

redirete 1:37:44
1:37:47

or we're going to do something, separately or together.

redirete 1:37:47
1:37:49

I mean, do you see what I'm saying?

redirete 1:37:49
1:37:53

I mean, what does it mean to just, uh, simply, uh, sit there?

redirete 1:37:53
1:37:56

That makes you nervous.

redirete 1:37:56
1:38:00

Well, well, why shouldn't it make me nervous? It just seems ridiculous to me.

redirete 1:38:00
1:38:02

That's interesting, Wally.

redirete 1:38:03
1:38:07

You know, when I went to Ladakh in western Tibet and stayed on a farm for a month...

redirete 1:38:07
1:38:11

well, there, you know, when people come over in the evening for tea, nobody says anything.

redirete 1:38:11
1:38:13

Unless there's something to say, but there almost never is.

redirete 1:38:13
1:38:17

So they just sit there and drink their tea, and it doesn't seem to bother them.

redirete 1:38:20
1:38:23

I mean, you see, the trouble, Wally, with always being active and doing things...

redirete 1:38:23
1:38:26

is that I think it's quite possible to do all sorts of things...

redirete 1:38:26
1:38:29

and at the same time be completely dead inside.

redirete 1:38:29
1:38:32

I mean, you're doing all these things, but are you doing them...

redirete 1:38:32
1:38:34

because you really feel an impulse to do them...

redirete 1:38:34
1:38:37

or are you doing them mechanically, as we were saying before?

redirete 1:38:37
1:38:40

Because I really do believe that if you're just living mechanically...

redirete 1:38:40
1:38:42

then you have to change your life.

redirete 1:38:42
1:38:45

I mean, you know, when you're young, you go out on dates all the time.

redirete 1:38:45
1:38:48

You go dancing or something. You're floating free.

redirete 1:38:48
1:38:51

And then one day suddenly you find yourself in a relationship...

redirete 1:38:51
1:38:54

and suddenly everything freezes.

redirete 1:38:54
1:38:56

And this can be true in your work as well.

redirete 1:38:57
1:38:59

And I mean, of course, if you're really alive inside...

redirete 1:38:59
1:39:01

then of course there's no problem.

redirete 1:39:01
1:39:04

I mean, if you're living with somebody in one little room...

redirete 1:39:04
1:39:07

and there's a life going on between you and the person you're living with...

redirete 1:39:07
1:39:11

well, then a whole adventure can be going on right in that room.

redirete 1:39:11
1:39:15

But there's always the danger that things can go dead.

redirete 1:39:15
1:39:19

Then I really do think you have to kind of become a hobo or something, you know...

redirete 1:39:19
1:39:21

like Kerouac, and go out on the road.

redirete 1:39:21
1:39:23

I really believe that.

redirete 1:39:23
1:39:27

You know, it's not that wonderful to spend your life on the road.

redirete 1:39:27
1:39:32

My own overwhelming preference is to stay in that room if you can.

redirete 1:39:32
1:39:35

But you know, if you live with somebody for a long time, people are constantly saying...

redirete 1:39:35
1:39:39

''Well, of course it's not as great as it used to be, but that's only natural.

redirete 1:39:39
1:39:42

The first blush of a romance goes, and that's the way it has to be.''

redirete 1:39:42
1:39:46

Now, I totally disagree with that.

redirete 1:39:46
1:39:50

But I do think that you have to constantly ask yourself the question, with total frankness:

redirete 1:39:50
1:39:52

Is your marriage still a marriage?

redirete 1:39:53
1:39:55

Is the sacramental element there?

redirete 1:39:55
1:39:57

Just as you have to ask about the sacramental element in your work-

redirete 1:39:58
1:40:00

Is it still there?

redirete 1:40:00
1:40:03

I mean, it's a very frightening thing, Wally, to have to suddenly realize...

redirete 1:40:03
1:40:07

that, my God, I thought I was living my life, but in fact I haven't been a human being.

redirete 1:40:07
1:40:09

I've been a performer.

redirete 1:40:09
1:40:12

I haven't been living. I've been acting. I've - I've acted the role of the father.

redirete 1:40:12
1:40:16

I've acted the role of the husband. I've acted the role of the friend.

redirete 1:40:16
1:40:19

I've acted the role of the writer, or director, or what have you.

redirete 1:40:20
1:40:23

I've lived in the same room with this person, but I haven't really seen them.

redirete 1:40:23
1:40:28

I haven't really heard them. I haven't really been with them.

redirete 1:40:28
1:40:30

Yeah, I know some people are just sometimes...

redirete 1:40:30
1:40:33

uh, existing just side by side.

redirete 1:40:33
1:40:38

I mean, uh, the other person's, uh, face could just turn into a great wolf's face...

redirete 1:40:38
1:40:41

and, uh, it just wouldn't be noticed.

redirete 1:40:41
1:40:44

And it wouldn't be noticed, no. It wouldn't be noticed.

redirete 1:40:46
1:40:48

I mean, when I was in Israel a little while ago -

redirete 1:40:48
1:40:51

I mean, I have this picture of Chiquita that was taken when she -

redirete 1:40:51
1:40:54

I always carry it with me. It was taken when she was about 26 or something.

redirete 1:40:54
1:40:57

And it's in summer, and she's stretched out on a terrace...

redirete 1:40:57
1:41:00

in this sort of old-fashioned long skirt that's kind of pulled up.

redirete 1:41:00
1:41:03

And she's slim and sensual and beautiful.

redirete 1:41:03
1:41:07

And I've always looked at that picture and just thought about just how sexy she looks.

redirete 1:41:07
1:41:10

And then last year in Israel, I looked at the picture...

redirete 1:41:10
1:41:14

and I realized that that face in the picture was the saddest face in the world.

redirete 1:41:14
1:41:17

That girl at that time was just lost...

redirete 1:41:17
1:41:19

so sad and so alone.

redirete 1:41:19
1:41:23

I've been carrying this picture for years and not ever really seeing what it is, you know.

redirete 1:41:23
1:41:26

I just never really looked at the picture.

redirete 1:41:28
1:41:32

And then, at a certain point , I realized I'd just gone for a good 1 8 years unable to feel...

redirete 1:41:33
1:41:35

except in the most extreme situations.

redirete 1:41:35
1:41:38

I mean, to some extent, I still had the ability to live in my work.

redirete 1:41:38
1:41:40

That was why I was such a work junkie.

redirete 1:41:40
1:41:44

That was why I felt that every play that I did was a matter of my life or my death.

redirete 1:41:44
1:41:46

But in my real life, I was dead.

redirete 1:41:47
1:41:49

<i>I was a robot.</i>

redirete 1:41:49
1:41:52

I mean, I didn't even allow myself to get angry or annoyed.

redirete 1:41:52
1:41:55

I mean, you know, today Chiquita, Nicolas, Marina -

redirete 1:41:55
1:41:59

All day long, as people do, they do things that annoy me and they say things that annoy me.

redirete 1:41:59
1:42:02

And today I get annoyed. And they say, ''Why are you annoyed?''

redirete 1:42:02
1:42:04

And I say, ''Because you're annoying,'' you know.

redirete 1:42:06
1:42:08

And when I allowed myself to consider the possibility...

redirete 1:42:08
1:42:11

of not spending the rest of my life with Chiquita...

redirete 1:42:11
1:42:14

I realized that what I wanted most in life was to always be with her.

redirete 1:42:16
1:42:19

But at that time, I hadn't learned what it would be like to let yourself react...

redirete 1:42:19
1:42:21

to another human being.

redirete 1:42:21
1:42:23

And if you can't react to another person...

redirete 1:42:23
1:42:27

then there's no possibility of action or interaction.

redirete 1:42:27
1:42:32

And if there isn't, I don't really know what the word ''love'' means...

redirete 1:42:32
1:42:37

except duty, obligation, sentimentality, fear.

redirete 1:42:39
1:42:42

I mean - [ Chuckling ]

redirete 1:42:43
1:42:45

I don't know about you, Wally, but I -

redirete 1:42:45
1:42:49

I just had to put myself into a kind of training program to learn how to be a human being.

redirete 1:42:49
1:42:51

I mean, how did I feel about anything? I didn't know.

redirete 1:42:51
1:42:56

What kind of things did I like? What kind of people did I really want to be with? You know?

redirete 1:42:56
1:42:58

And the only way that I could think of to find out...

redirete 1:42:58
1:43:02

was to just cut out all the noise and stop performing all the time...

redirete 1:43:02
1:43:06

and just listen to what was inside me.

redirete 1:43:06
1:43:09

See, I think a time comes when you need to do that.

redirete 1:43:09
1:43:12

Now, maybe in order to do it, you have to go to the Sahara...

redirete 1:43:12
1:43:14

and maybe you can do it at home.

redirete 1:43:14
1:43:16

But you need to cut out the noise.

redirete 1:43:19
1:43:20

<i>[ Car Horn Honks On Street ]</i>

redirete 1:43:21
1:43:23

Yeah. Of course, personally, I-I just, uh -

redirete 1:43:23
1:43:26

I usually don't, uh - [ Chuckles ] like those quiet moments, you know.

redirete 1:43:26
1:43:28

I really don't.

redirete 1:43:28
1:43:33

I mean, uh, I don't know if it's that, uh, Freudian thing or what -

redirete 1:43:33
1:43:36

But, uh, you know, the fear of unconscious impulses...

redirete 1:43:36
1:43:39

or my own aggression or whatever, but, uh...

redirete 1:43:39
1:43:43

if things get too quiet, and I find myself just, uh, sitting there...

redirete 1:43:43
1:43:45

you know, as we were saying before...

redirete 1:43:45
1:43:49

I mean, whether I'm by myself, or-or I'm-I'm with someone else...

redirete 1:43:49
1:43:53

I just, uh - I just have this feeling of...

redirete 1:43:53
1:43:57

uh, my God, I'm going to be revealed.

redirete 1:43:57
1:44:01

In other words, I'm adequate to do any sort of a task, um...

redirete 1:44:01
1:44:05

but I'm not adequate, uh, just to - to be a human being.

redirete 1:44:05
1:44:07

I mean, in other words, I'm not, uh -

redirete 1:44:07
1:44:10

If I'm just, uh, trapped there and I'm not allowed to do things...

redirete 1:44:10
1:44:14

but all I can do is just, um, be there...

redirete 1:44:14
1:44:16

well, I'll just fail.

redirete 1:44:16
1:44:18

I mean, in other words, uh...

redirete 1:44:18
1:44:21

I can pass any other sort of a test...

redirete 1:44:21
1:44:25

and, you know, I can even get an ''A'' if I put in the required effort...

redirete 1:44:25
1:44:27

but I just don't, uh -

redirete 1:44:27
1:44:30

I just don't have a clue how to pass this test.

redirete 1:44:30
1:44:33

I mean - I mean, of course, I realize this isn't a test...

redirete 1:44:33
1:44:36

but, um, I see it as a test...

redirete 1:44:36
1:44:38

and I feel I'm going to fail it.

redirete 1:44:38
1:44:40

I mean, it's - it's very scary.

redirete 1:44:40
1:44:45

I just feel, uh,just totally at sea. I mean -

redirete 1:44:45
1:44:47

Well, you know, I could imagine a life, Wally...

redirete 1:44:47
1:44:52

in which each day would become an incredible, monumental, creative task...

redirete 1:44:52
1:44:54

and we're not necessarily up to it.

redirete 1:44:54
1:44:58

I mean, if you felt like walking out on the person you live with, you'd walk out.

redirete 1:44:58
1:45:00

Then if you felt like it, you'd come back.

redirete 1:45:00
1:45:04

But meanwhile, the other person would have reacted to your walking out.

redirete 1:45:04
1:45:07

It would be a life of such feeling.

redirete 1:45:07
1:45:09

I mean, what was amazing in the workshops I led...

redirete 1:45:09
1:45:13

was how quickly people seemed to fall into enthusiasm...

redirete 1:45:13
1:45:17

celebration,joy, wonder, abandon, wildness, tenderness.

redirete 1:45:18
1:45:20

Could we stand to live like that?

redirete 1:45:20
1:45:23

Yeah, I think it's that moment of contact with another person.

redirete 1:45:23
1:45:25

I mean, that's what scares us.

redirete 1:45:25
1:45:28

I mean, that moment of being face to face with another person.

redirete 1:45:28
1:45:30

I mean, now - [ Laughs ]

redirete 1:45:30
1:45:35

You wouldn't think it would be so frightening. It's strange that we find it so frightening.

redirete 1:45:35
1:45:37

Well, it isn't that strange.

redirete 1:45:37
1:45:40

I mean, first of all, there are some pretty good reasons for being frightened.

redirete 1:45:40
1:45:44

I mean, you know, the human being is a complex and dangerous creature.

redirete 1:45:44
1:45:47

I mean, really, if you start living each moment?

redirete 1:45:47
1:45:49

Christ, that's quite a challenge.

redirete 1:45:49
1:45:53

I mean, if you really reach out and you're really in touch with the other person...

redirete 1:45:53
1:45:56

well, that really is something to strive for, I think, I really do.

redirete 1:45:56
1:45:59

Yeah, it's just so pathetic if one doesn't do that.

redirete 1:45:59
1:46:04

Of course there's a problem, because the closer you come, I think, to another human being...

redirete 1:46:04
1:46:07

the more completely mysterious - and unreachable -

redirete 1:46:07
1:46:09

that person becomes.

redirete 1:46:09
1:46:13

I mean, you know, you have to reach out, you have to go back and forth with them...

redirete 1:46:13
1:46:17

and you have to relate, and yet you're relating to a ghost or something.

redirete 1:46:17
1:46:19

I don't know, because we're ghosts.

redirete 1:46:19
1:46:23

We're phantoms. Who are we?

redirete 1:46:23
1:46:25

And that's to face, to confront the fact that you're completely alone.

redirete 1:46:26
1:46:28

And to accept that you're alone is to accept death.

redirete 1:46:28
1:46:32

You mean, because somehow when you are alone, you're alone with death.

redirete 1:46:32
1:46:36

I mean, nothing's obstructing your view of it, or something like that.

redirete 1:46:36
1:46:38

<i>Right.</i>

redirete 1:46:38
1:46:41

You know, if I understood it correctly, I think, uh, Heidegger said...

redirete 1:46:41
1:46:45

that, uh, if you were to experience your own being to the full...

redirete 1:46:45
1:46:50

you'd be experiencing the decay of that being toward death...

redirete 1:46:50
1:46:53

as a part of your experience.

redirete 1:46:53
1:46:56

You know, in the sexual act there's that moment of complete forgetting...

redirete 1:46:56
1:46:58

which is so incredible.

redirete 1:46:58
1:47:00

Then in the next moment, you start to think about things:

redirete 1:47:00
1:47:02

work on the play, what you've got to do tomorrow.

redirete 1:47:02
1:47:06

I don't know if this is true of you, but I think it must be quite common.

redirete 1:47:06
1:47:08

The world comes in quite fast.

redirete 1:47:09
1:47:12

Now, that again may be because we're afraid to stay in that place of forgetting...

redirete 1:47:12
1:47:14

because that, again, is close to death.

redirete 1:47:14
1:47:17

Like people who are afraid to go to sleep.

redirete 1:47:17
1:47:21

In other words, you interrelate, and you don't know what the next moment will bring.

redirete 1:47:21
1:47:23

And to not know what the next moment will bring...

redirete 1:47:23
1:47:25

brings you closer to a perception of death.

redirete 1:47:25
1:47:29

<i>You see, that's why I think that people have affairs.</i>

redirete 1:47:29
1:47:31

I mean, you know, in the theater, if you get good reviews...