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TVP Teamspeak Q&A Seminar - 2012-05-20 - Expectations of Predictability (part 1)

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Hello everybody and welcome to The Venus Project seminar for May 20th, 2012. Most people are not really hurt by the world, they're hurt by their own expectations. I've read somewhere that H.G. Wells was very disappointed in people. He felt that we would arrive at a more scientific community than what we have today. But what hurt him was not the world, it was his expectations. He expected people to lean more toward science and less toward metaphysics, and suspected that the system would gather intelligence and know the right direction. So what really hurt him was his own expectations. The real answer to that question is whatever happens in the world is real, what you think should happen is not real. So you're not disappointed by the world, you're disappointed by your own projections. If you meet a person, you say "That's a wonderful person", and they turn out to be different than you suspected, you get mad and you say "She isn't that wonderful", or "He isn't that wonderful" And it's your own projections that you're mad at. The right way to look at a person is "I don't know enough about them to make a judgement." And in time when you make a judgement, you say "Up to now they appear to be so (and) so", but something may come back and reminds them of something else, so they hurt you; they really don't hurt you, they're normal. That is normal to their values. Like my mother would believe in religion, because it's normal to her background, and when things get tough she prays, because she doesn't know what else to do. What you have to do is take time out and try to inform people as to how they look at things. It may take you two or three years to do that. But we would expect to find people that understand what we say. When they shake their heads, "I guess" that doesn't mean they understand, it means they understand a limited amount. So, the point is: what are your expectations? Now, in chemistry if you mix certain things together, certain things happen, at a certain temperature. At different temperature, the same thing doesn't happen. You can get mad and throw the experiment on the floor, if you don't follow the rules. So if a person wants to be more analytical, they have to learn how to say "I don't know" or "up to now everything seems to be okay." My relationships seem to work out in many different areas, or more areas than I was expecting." Sometimes we are pleasantly surprised by the reaction of people we had a negative view of. I may have a negative view of you, but in time, observing what you do, my negative view becomes a positive view. But if I have a negative view it means I was projecting. I really don't know, so the point is events occur that are tough. If a person deserts you at that time, you understand that they can't live under those conditions. They're not bad people, they revert back to their conditioning. Now, reverting back to their conditioning means if the world is catastrophic, if a man is shot and he's laying in the battlefield, he says "I hope the first aid people come soon, I don't feel very good." If they don't come soon he says "where the hell are they?" He expected them to come sooner, but they come as soon as they can come, whenever that is. And if you can't take it, you can swear all you want to. But if you keep, continue to swear, and continue to get angry, They're apt to arrive during that period. And you say "Well, it's my prayers, because I hoped they would come and rescue me. That goes for...H.G. Wells had a scene in the movie, I think it was called "The shape of things to come", in which a pilot shot down a german pilot or another pilot, and he went over to the plane crash and the guy was very ill, he couldn't leave. He says "the plane is going to explode and I'm badly damaged." So this guy gave him a gun to shoot himself. In the motion picture 'Air Mail' there was a guy caught in a airplane there was a guy caught in an airplane, couldn't get out, it was burning. So the guy shot him twice, the guy loved him but he didn't' want him to burn to death. Is that murder, what is it? "If anybody was suffering so much from cancer, I shot him." Is that love? How do you talk about love? Do you know what I mean? If a person is suffering from cancer, and he says "Please, take my life." The doctor says "You can live three months with this condition." and you hear him crying out and suffering and you shoot him, are you a murderer? Are you kind? All those word are very difficult to deal with. It depends on the situation, depends on how attached you are to the person, if you don't give a damn about their suffering, you know what I mean? So, people begged certain doctors to take their lives, They were suffering too much, it was too much on their family. They didn't have a bank account to pay for this medical condition that they were under. And they said "Please, end my life, because the pain is unbearable." And the Bible says you're not supposed to take a life, no matter what the pain is. That's your entry into Heaven. Especially in India, (if) a person is suffering a great deal, they're paying off their karma. If you end that, you shoot them, they can't pay off their karma. So you have all these crazy things that you are exposed to, and you use your logic thinking that it makes sense. It only makes sense if a person says "I see your point, but I'm unable to accept it emotionally." There are people like that, that can't do that, they can't shoot their father, even tough he's suffering because it says "Thou shalt not kill." And they figure even tough he shot his father that was suffering, they committed a crime against god. So remember it's your own expectations that hurt you, not the world you live in. Whatever happens in the world is real, what you think should happen is unreal, so people are hurt by their expectations. If you have reasonable expectations such as "I don't know", and whatever happens, you say "Gee, I wouldn't think it to be that bad." How do you know how bad it would be? Whatever happens no matter how bad it is, if fifty kids are killed in a bus crash, that's the problem. Why were they killed? The bus slipped off an icy highway. What could you do about it? I don't know, and the condition will prevail. Unless you come up with a new way of friction tyres, that can't skid on icy highways. That's the best you can do. But if you made those tyres and put them on the bus and the bus still slipped, it means you've got more to go. You can't say "I've made icy tyres that won't slip." That's a projection, unless you test it out many times. Do you understand? So what does man really want? He really wants accurate predictability. You cannot achieve that unless you're technical. Accurate predictability. If an engine fails, that means that is something wrong with the fuel pump or any number of things. If you can't attend to those things then the probability is that at sometime or (the) other the engine will fail. Now I don't expect you to walk around accepting everything that happens. I expect you to be angered and say "What can I do about it?" "I don't know but I'm going to try." I'm going to try and make it possible for people not to be injured. I'm going to try to design a conveyor, that's on the tracks or under the tracks that's locked. So even in an amusement park, the loop the loop can't go off the tracks because it's got underbraces. But the underbraces may be perfect, but the structure of the unit may not be. So to the ability of an individual to handle all those things is very difficult. But he only knows or she only knows what to handle after the event. Do you think you know what I mean? The event has to occur first, then the person makes a safety device, And he solved that problem, but there may be other problems, and another event may occur that's negative, and the person says "What can I do about it? I don't know enough about it, I'm going to read up on it and try to become familiar with the nature of the problem, and try to solve it." And when a person says to you "Have you solved it?" This is the device I made in an attempt to solve it. " - Will it work?" " - Well, according to the tests I've done, it will." But in reality it was cold and the oil didn't flow so the thing wasn't lubricated and it didn't work. There are other factors you learn about later on. That's called "After the facts". So some people get mad at technicians and say "You're a technician, why did that thing fail?" "What do you suggest?" is what you put to that person. If they say " "- You designed that unit and it failed." "- Yes it did failed, apparently I didn't know enough about solving that problem. What do you suggest? Don't get mad at me, what do you suggest? You've done nothing but expecting me to solve a problem." Now do you want to discuss some other aspects of behavior? - That said towards human relationships...? - Anything... - Trying different things if it doesn't work... - Then you don't know enough how solving a problem, or you can't solve a problem, or the person is too rigid in their values. They may learn after five years, but you're not that interested, in spending five years with a person, to try to convince them. There are people that don't even know what data means. If you submit data, they say "That's your opinion." They don't understand, verification, what it means, and there's a lot of people that just don't understand, and you can get them to understand, but whether or not you got the time to put out to that. If you have to spend 20 years on your mother, to get her to understand certain things, by that time she's ready to fly away, do you know what I mean? So you have to ask yourself, you know... They say "He passed away" like he went some other place. He rotted away, that's what death is. You don't like that so you say "He's gone", "He's gone someplace else." That sounds better than he died. You say "He passed away", "He's with the father." All that is very pleasant I like it better than to say "He's rotting away." That's not pleasant at all, that's why most people dress up the dead with a new suit and a tie and a silk coffin with soft pillows, softer than everything they ever slept on when they where alive. That casket is very comfortable, has pearl handles, the guy wouldn't give a shit if it have no handles on, if he was dead, do you know what I mean? But to accept life that way is difficult for people, the losses are so tremendous, you say "He's gone now, he's off to another plane of existence", or "He's with the Father." That's much more comforting than "He's dead, that's the end." That's a rough way to look at life. So you got to understand why people with a low self sufficiency need artificiality. But if they really believed that the person was with the Father, they wouldn't cry. If they really believed in God, and they really believe if a person dies he's now with the Father, they'd feel so wonderful. Do you understand? But if they weep, it means they have doubts. Or they feel sorry that that person is no longer with them. But what do they do to secure the position? Did they put up a fireproof building? A guy says "All my kids were burned in a fire. I came home one day and it all burned to the ground." What do you suggest be done about that? "I don't know", then that's part of the problem. You want to make buildings with fireproof material. You want to have a fire escape in the opposite direction. If that door is burning in that area kids can't get out. That window is designed to come out in the opposite direction. That's the best you can do. If you did all that and the kids have never got out, because you forgot to inform them that there was escape hatch. So the next time you have kids you might inform them (?) there's no fire to back it up. Do you know what I'm talking about? Life isn't easy, there's just a lot of thing we don't know. Hoping that things will work out is a cop out. Nothing works out unless you help it to work out. Now I could get mad at you for something you did that I didn't expect you to do. You tore out my drawing because (?) you said "That was too sophisticated." "But you didn't consult me." So, am I right? Are you right? You maybe right and I may not thought at it that way. But I prefer that you consult me and give me your point of view, so that I might reject it or accept it. If I reject it and you burn it up for my own good, it's only my own good if I approve of what you did. If you do something to save me, and I don't realise it, then I might dislike you, even though you're doing good for me. So you ask a person "Does that please you?" and you tell them about it, and if they say "No, don't do it", if that's their wish, and things don't work out they might turn around "Hey, you had the right idea." But they only can say that later, but if you expected them to be more reasonable that's your own projections. Projections mean that we project into other people the behavior we like to see. "I know you'll do the right thing, so I'll leave it with you." You don't know they'll do the right thing, you hope they'll do the right thing Is there other areas you want me to cover? -What would be some tools, Jacque to maybe not speculate so much (let's) say on old experiences or in relationships, how can we get away, from that old associative memory, to give somebody in a relationship... -I think I know what you want to know, I hope that that was picked up by the recorder, but I would say this, when you first meet a person "Do you believe in God? Yes." That means a lot of problems. "Do you believe that God looks after you? Yes." That means more problems. "Do you believe the world is a reasonable place? Absolutely." More problems, by their conclusions. So if you do a survey and say "What do you think..." But don't interfere. Like I had a guy come to me and he said "I like to kill animals, I enjoy their struggle." If I said "YOU DO WHAT!?" He says "I like to kill animals", he says "well, I don't kill them everyday, once every two months." Because you said "WHAT!? DON'T SHOW ANY(?)" "I believe in God, I'm metaphysician, I believe in the holy man." If you show, " - You believe in what? - Well, once a year I see the holy man." He's going to edit what he says on your reactions. So if a person says "I like to kill animals." I say "What else do you?" without showing any attitude, good or bad. Normal people say "You killed an animal? Did the animal hurt you?" "No, I just love to watch it suffer when I stab it with a needle." You say "That's a terrible thing to do." Well, that's your projection, that person is conditioned to do that. And if they're conditioned to do that, do you have the means to undo that conditioning? "No, I don't." Then turn it over to someone that may. Now, they don't need a moral lecture, that won't turn them around. What will turn them around is showing the fact that excites them. You know, if you don't understand that, that's why people driving a car will slow up at an accident. The say "- What happened? - The guy stuck his head out of the window and there was a telephone pole there and it knocked his head off. - Jesus Christ!" So they slow around, slow up when there's an accident to see what's happened. The guy steps out perfectly well with a flower. That's not what they expected. So when some psychiatrists think that, if two planes hit in mid air and they crash to the ground, that people get a kick out of it because they weren't in that plane they compare the poor conditions and it gives them a sense of being more alive, when they see someone else killed, can you understand that? Well, if you see someone else killed, if you don't know who they are there's no basis, except you say "How terrible". "- Who was killed in the car accident? - Two young children and women(?)." Well the two young children were dying of cancer and had a week to live. You say "Maybe it's better that they went that way," do you know what I'm talking about? It's very hard to come up with the correct view. You could say you don't know enough about it. Do a survey first of the person, "What do you believe in?" "I'm a seventh day adventist." " - Do you believe God looks after you? - Yes, I do." "- Do you believe in punishment? - I believe in the strap, and that brings children around, when you use your belt and you teach them not to do that again." Well, if they give you a bunch of erroneous conclusions you can expect problems, if you rely on that person. The less you rely on another person whom you don't know, the less problems. I don't know if that answered your question. (R Meadows) -This is twenty minutes of a forty eight minute section. We're going to play the second half next week, so, this is the first section now, so we can take questions. -First question, how does The Venus Project view such things as psychosomatic illnesses, disorders and placebo meditations, are these things studied through a scientific approach or considered more along the lines of quackery? And thanks for the answering (?) yes, Vixie. This is only speaking from my experience as much as I know, I would say it like this: if we are talking about the transitional period we're talking about The Venus Project, the realisation of a Resource Based Economy, I would suppose that any kind of method that might be helpful for people will be studied so we have a great length, we have actually so much knowledge, not really knowledge, not really concrete knowledge but say experiences from say the Eastern cultures. Okay, then I have a problem with my presentation here, I guess? Can we ask Jacque and Roxanne to answer that question? -That will be nice, yes. -Jacque can you talk about conditioning animals, when you're in a state sponsored psychological trailer park? Also, how did you catch the snakes? Can you talk when you conditioned animals during the Depression? Yes, it was a transit camp. -What type? It depends on the kind of conditioning you want. I didn't have the time to take care of all the raccoons I captured. So I made a turnstile in a continuous cage, in order to get food they had to go through a lot of turnstiles to get to the end cage. The turnstiles swept the floor of their cage and all the crumbs went down where the red ants ate them. So, I didn't have the time to take care of all the animals. I conditioned some of the dogs to help feed the raccoons, so they would help me so I can have to take on more animals by using clever techniques or devices to assist me. If you teach an animal to press a lever to get water and you press another lever, a dark lever or a different shape lever to get food, and to press another lever to exit the cage that they're in, they will learn how to do that and it all depends on what you want of the animal the way you condition them. You asked me "Well, how did you conditioned them?" It depends on what I wanted. Also this question says "How did you catch the snakes?" -I would lift up objects on the ground, like heavy stones, and I would lift them up, and there's usually a snake under a stone, rock or a flat surface. And then I use a forked stick; a forked stick looks like the letter "Y", and I put it over the head, so I wouldn't be bitten if it were a poisonous snake. Then I would grab it behind the forked stake so I would control the direction of the head. And then I would drop it into a container or a box with a small opening. I caught snakes mostly with forked sticks. -Have you ever attempted to turn around anyone working within politics, who and what happened? Humphrey? Did you work with him much? -No, I didn't work with Humphrey much, because he was not familiar with experimental work of that kind and it would take too long to get the point across. Politicians generally know very little about human behavior or social history. They know what the history books tell them, but they don't really understand the effects of environment upon behavior. -We did had one politician here, once he came to the tour, he was a Republican and I was astonished as to how little he knew and how immature he seemed to be. -Well, you have to find out yourself, try talking to politicians. If they go for politics, that ought to tell a lot about them. The very fact that they want to be a president or a congressman tells you they have a low self sufficiency and want public recognition for the position they hold, not what they do. -Jacque, have you considered putting together a specific plan for child development, for example, a blueprint on how to raise a child in a socially sustainable way? This could be a way of promoting The Venus Project if you wrote a book about this. -Well, I never written a book about that in particular because there's so much a person has to learn, before they even work with children. So I would say that I can only make a tape and giving you the different approaches when working with children. I can make a DVD which will give you a better idea on how to raise children. -What do you think it was from your own early development or conditioning, that set you on the tracks of critical thinking and interest in science? I don't think it was only one thing, I think it was many different occurrences for example my parents, if I would not obey them, they might hurt me, or take away a certain privilege. Apparently that didn't not work, and I tried it out on different animals, and working with animals I tried the punishment, the reward system and found out that you don't need to hurt an animal to teach it things. You can also teach it things by varying the environment that they're in. If you don't understand that, if I wanted a dog to survive within a given area I would put a bunch of levers in the confined area that the dog is in. If a dog would press a certain lever, he would get water, if he pressed another lever he would get food. If he pressed another lever he would get my attention. So, you have to do that yourself, you must find out what does this particular animal responds to. I had difficulty with snakes, I mentioned that, in conditioning snakes I didn't know how to get to them at all, and I found out later of course after a lot of experiments that didn't work. I found out that if I put a glass partition between the snake and a white mouse, everytime he snapped to the mouse he hit the glass, and after about ten or fifteen snaps at the white mouse, he stopped snapping toward the white mouse. Then I took the glass out and the white mouse was free to go anywhere in the cage even leap on or position himself on the snake's head, and it wouldn't bother the mouse. -What are some of the things that in your early experience that conditioned you toward science? (R Meadows) - Any specific thing? (J Fresco) - Aviation. Because airplanes work in three dimensions. An automobile is on the ground and works in two dimensions. Airplanes work in three dimensions and there are many more problems you need to control them. So aviation was a very good exposure to the nature of the physical sciences related to aircraft. -"What was your general goal for conditioning your own children, did you want them to develop in any particular way?" -Yes, I wanted them to have a deep appreciation for science, not to argue with each other and to learn how to handle differences in point of view without getting angry understanding another person will draw different conclusions due to their different backgrounds. They also learned to ask people what certain words meant to them, to understand how they interpreted the world they live in. And that told me what they needed in order to become more accurate in their predictability. See, all human beings really seek predictability. So when a man spanks his child he hopes that the child would be obedient to his commands. But if they're not obedient he spanks them more, which is not the answer. He doesn't even know what to look for. So with some exposure to psychology, some exposure, it gives you better tools than the tools you have without training. -So far these all seem to be directed toward Jacque so it's difficult to take somebody else in, but hopefully soon they will be others the other persons can answer, but let me go on Jacque, because there are couple more for you. "Have you ever used or looked to biomimicry in your inventions?" I remember you talked about first developed Velcro and you wanted to use it or maybe you introduced it for the pants and you got that through the plants that stuck together. Do you want to describe that? -Yes, there are many different types of plants; when you walk through the woods it sticks to your trousers. And that suggested the idea for Velcro. And nature has been around for millions of years, and nature... I hate to say nature solved the problem, but nature has worked out many lifeforms that tend to exist. And if you study what nature has accomplished over years you can save yourself a lot of trouble. -I remember the story that you tried to introduce Velcro to the Navy along time ago, didn't they had a lot of buttons? -Yes, a lot of buttons on them, trousers of a sailor and he had to button himself up before he came out of the barracks. With Velcro they can come out right away if there's an air raid or anything else. So I tough of using the natural method that Velcro sticks to clothing to make two pieces of Velcro on the zipper area so you didn't need to zip things up or button the fly. - This was long before Velcro came into existence... - Long before, yes. And he also introduced that to the airforce, you were in the airforce, right? - For the shoe too, so people, the sailors could... - To button up those high shoes, it took too long, to get out of the barracks. -And I remember the story, you brought it to somebody in the airforce and you described it and they said you forgot one thing, and you were amazed, and you said "What is it, what did I forget?" You were really interested, and they said "Tradition." -Well, you would never use airplanes in the army if you went (?)by tradition. A very good example of that was the Polish. They believed in the cavalry, and the German slaughtered them on their horses, because they couldn't see the future. -"Where did you picked up your artistic and modeling skills, where did you picked them up from?" -Necessity. I made things out of wood and I had to learn how to carve, propellers and other things because in the early days, you couldn't buy a ready made propeller for a miniature airplane, we had to make them. So we had to develop skills, and to develop skills, you got a book out on how to carve propellers. In other words if you looked at experiences of other people, you would save yourself a lot of trouble, rather than slowly evolving. Then you'd learn how to balance a propeller. If you didn't balance it, the airplane would shake. So you have to learn that, and the more you learn the more you have to (?) bring to ideas. The more you read about nature, about technology, the more inventive you became. You cannot invent things unless you've been exposed to a lot of different concepts. The more concepts you're exposed to, the more experience you have, the more you can bring to a subject. -Okay, another question. "Jacque if an organisation developed a new social system which surpassed your city designs in many areas and had better approaches in changing social values, would The Venus Project drop its activities and assist with that organisation's development?" -Yes! -That'd be nice. "Is there a difference between a Resource Based Economy and a gift economy?" -Yes, thank you, I would like to try to answer this question, I would like to apologise for my broken English first. As far as I understand the gift economy deals more with the social status and the gifts available at the moment which was produced as it was available as a resource in a given area, and this example was in different cultures, low tech cultures. What a Resource Based Economy does, this is very high tech, organised society, you're not just receiving gifts as a social status or maybe finding common ground the Resource Based Economy provides gifts and services which are needed with an estimation for a population growth, for the development of population etc. If you look into a gift economy, a gift economy just deals with what is available at the moment, the gift economy doesn't develop society to work together in the future. -Do you want to go on with the next question? (R Meadows) -Who is it that's answering, sorry, I didn't get your name? (Stan) -This is Stan. I answered this question and (?)I will answer another one. (R Meadows) -Sure, go ahead with the next one. -All right. How much of the centralised data will be made available? Now, may I just basically ask everybody who's listening, when you ask questions, I would really appreciate, I'm sure that everybody will really appreciate it if you'd be a little more specific on that. Basically centralised data when? During the transition? When The Venus Project is realised? In what way centralised? Basically just like an example but as far as I can imagine, the centralised data that would be gathered, from all, let's say all the probes, all the computers that are put in the ground, or in the air, or in the seas. This data, let's say the raw data will be put in a system where the system will analyse the data and produce, let's say, specific results. Based on these results there will be specific actions taken. But it all depends on what kind of data do you want to know that will be available. If you want raw data, you will get information that isn't really information to you, let's say random numbers, (?) well, you wouldn't really understand. As well as that, let's say if we're talking about Geology or Weather Forecasting, even if you don't get the raw data, let's say, you get the processed data how much of that will that be of interest to you, how much will you understand? If you're in a specific field and you understand these things, of course you have access, but that's only in a Resource Based Economy. Anybody wants to add to that? (Stan) -Yes, I would try to add to that. But maybe we are talking about different timeframe, if we are talking about Resource Based Economy, I understand that all the data will be available, which is relevant to your interest. If you would like to know more about a specific field or get more updates on your location on your device, or whatever, so you will get information you need. The next one is: "How does TVP view such things as psychosomatic and Illness disorders?" This one is on medication, Roxanne can you please answer that, because I don't feel comfortable? (J Fresco) -Is that during the transition? Or is that after? (R Meadows) -"Are these things studied through a scientific approach considered more along the lines of quackery?" -Well, I would say that I'm not very much for placebos or pills, I would rather engineer the behavior out of another person that's socially offensive, educate them out of that kind of behavior, give them behavior that is more advantageous in achieving the ends they wish to achieve, by teaching them how to go about it. In other words most psychosomatic problems are based upon too much concern with the self. If you get out of yourself like suicide, "What do I amount to? My life isn't going anywhere". It's all self pity. If you get out of yourself and get to work on things, on other people, helping other people then you usually don't have these types of aberrations. -And you're given so many erroneous values today, that is so very hard to deal with anything for so many people. When they rely on religion, or a father figure to take care of problems they just don't have any other alternatives to think about their problem so it's very hard to know if the person has some brain injury, or if it's a value system injury. It seems to manifest itself the same way. - Mostly value system injury. - Yes. "Jacque, Roxanne, what would be the required conditions when trying to negotiate with the local university about building a research city based on The Venus Project designs?" Should the city be named "The Venus Research Cities? Should The Venus Project oriented people organise it?" -Only if they consult The Venus Project. If they consult The Venus Project they don't have to ask those questions. -They're asking about building a city along with the university, I don't know if you get any university interested, that would be great, then have them get in touch with us. - Yes. - That would be good. -"Would jobs held by scientists or engineers be automated, why or why not?" Oh, does somebody else want to take this question? (Stan) -Yes, I would like to try that. I heard this question many times and I asked Jacque about it because lots of jobs in my view it was very difficult to understand how for example the surgeon work or any doctor work can be automated because they should have judgement in particular situation. But they're responsible as...all the judgement all their skills and methods were learned in the universities we learn a lot of information which can be replicated in a machine. So will jobs be automated in the future? Yes. Most of the jobs will be automated in the future, and it depends of course, It depends if we are talking about the transition, if you're talking about a Resource Based Economy, it's a different time frame but eventually as I understand, most boring and monotonous jobs would be automated. We will not automate jobs we'll actually advance human beings and advance human skills if people will do these jobs. -May I add something? (Stan) -Sure, absolutely -Yes, I would say that it all depends on the level of computer technology that is achieved at this moment as to which level we can automate the jobs in this area, so, for example, I think in would take some years from now based on the limited knowledge that I have to completely automate like a surgeon in a really sophisticated way while for other jobs it only takes like a few months maybe to create a machine that does this job. So, even the computer technology will develop in ways that we, from a limited viewpoint today cannot really understand at the moment, and we can only estimate on which level we will get with this. So there very fargoing estimation on this and these scenarios that are also very high level in education today, or that you need much education today, for that can be automated and made by machines, so it all depends on what we want to do what a machine, we are the ones who create them. And yes, so it depends on the technology we have and what we want to do with them, and the value system that's then imposed upon us what we want to do with them. (J Fresco) -If I had to answer that type of question, I would say that machines can do almost anything a human can do except feel. Machines will never feel, they won't feel emotions: hate, love, "Gee, I did a good job, I'm going to do a better job next time". They will not have such a value system. Machines will not feel. Machines have no ambition, no sympathy, no love, no caring attitude. But you don't want machines to have that anyway. You just machines to do a given job; fill bottles with aromatics, or shaving cream on a production line you want automobiles to build transportation units, they don't have to feel good about it. You don't need feelings in a machine, you need the ability to design machines to accomplish a given task, that's the problem, but to make machine feel things will serve no useful purpose. (R Meadows) -I guess this is for Jacque, define what you mean by the term 'identify', and could you elaborate on it? He's talking about the early lectures from the 1974-1980 lectures. - You have to be specific. - We have to know more about... - A specific subject. - Maybe used in a sentence or in a few different ways because I can't remember that either. Sorry, Roxanne, I was talking about 'identity' in the identity and approval lecture. -We'd have to play that on again. Or do you have another question concerning it, something more specific regarding that? -The idea of the question was that the identity of the person basically, yesterday we're listening to the lecture as a group, and they were very interested to know basically what Jacque meant by this term because the identity of the person as far as we understood is the complex, let's say, processes the person went through and identified himself or herself to, throughout their life. (J Fresco) -Well, if you talk to a Seminole Indian about a retractable landing gear on an airplane, they wouldn't know what you're talking about. So you have to ask yourself who are you talking to? What is their background? What kind of society do they come from? Are they technical, non-technical? So you can frame your words so they might understand you. (R Meadows) -Let me see if...are you talking about a self identity, the identity that somebody has of themself, is that what you are talking about? -Yes. (J Fresco) -Well, self identity is what you identify with. If you're brought up as an Eskimo and you do nothing but hunt seals, your subject matter is limited to the lifestyle you live, and you identify with the lifestyle you live. If you are brought up in a hi-tech society and you (?) mathematics, you can't talk to a Eskimo about your mathematical interests, or why are you interested in mathematics. You have to either give them some form of reference so they can understand what you are talking about. Not everybody understands what you are talking about, mostly we talk at people rather than to them. We say "Good morning", you know, we don't control the weather, we say "-Good morning, how is everybody?" "-Very well, thank you!" But we really don't go in to anything, these are automatic reactions. (R Meadows) -Somebody is asking how do we get a hold of the paper, or digital copy of "And the world will be one" that you did with Steve Dayle(?)? (?) most of the previous material was rolled into The Best That Money Can't Buy, however this book seems more autobiographical. -We aren't really putting that out right now, we'd maybe a little bit later we're using some of it for the film, or the film might turn into a TV series we're negotiating with some groups, but we'll let you know when anything really comes about with that. We're seeing them soon, but either would be good with us, so let me go on to the next sentence. "Jacque, you once said you met Buckminster Fuller before he became popular, what questions did you asked him and how did he respond?" What were your thoughts on him? -Well he was a very inventive person what you call a very 'original thinker'. And I asked him if whether he had any social ideas. He said, "You're trying to change the world, Jacque, and I can't even get my car out in the market." So he wasn't very social the time I met him. He didn't concern himself with it. Nor was he interested in it; when I talked to him about the subject matter he expressed no particular interest in social design, at that time, that was a long time ago before he was famous possibly after he wrote a book called 'Nine chains to the Moon.' -Before that, the first time, you met him a few times, but the first time you met him that's when he first had his car out. - He was working on the car. - Okay. - He didn't have it out. - Okay. - It was called the 'Dymaxion'. - We could pinpoint a date with that. "Are (?)hilly cities counter-productive in Earth's works always needed..." ...in Earth works always needed even considering flood issues? I'm not sure what the question is (?) on hilly cities (?)..." (Stan) -Okay, as far as I understand the question, the person says that he lives in a hilly city and he/she thinks that, design on the flat lines is better than on hilly cities for The Venus Project cities, but again it depends on what you are trying to achieve and what kind of city you have money to build. (R Meadows) -Initially we want the first city to be built on flat land it's a lot less labour intensive, resource intensive, things could be worked out much easier, in terms of reproducing one eighth of the city. (J Fresco) -And transportation will be simpler, but if you have, you know mountains are useful in that in the cold weather snow forms on the mountain, in the spring the snow melts and irrigates the land when there's no rain or hardly much rain. So mountains can be very useful in the cycle of water and how we use it. So it is not good to design cities on mountains because it will be less efficient, it would take more energy to build cities on hilly land rather than flat terrain. (R Meadows) -Anybody want to take "What is the difference between anarchy and The Venus Project?" -Yes, I would do that. When it comes to anarchy the term actually comes from the ancient Greek 'Anarchia' which means "the absence of a leader". When it comes to The Venus Project... let's continue with anarchy, so it's just a term. (?) someone mentioned that Gandhi actually used this word. But there's no actual, let's say, mechanics behind it. So the word by itself doesn't really mean how we are going to achieve that environment of that society that we don't need any leaders. So if there is anybody who is more familiar with that and can provide more evidence of any mechanisms in the anarchy structure of how we can achieve it, of how there is no need for a leader, okay, that is not a problem, but when it comes to The Venus Project, the most important part of it when it comes to the no necessity of a leader is the fact that basically, leaders are needed now in this system in order to take decisions, in order to take decisions for the large group, but when it comes to The Venus Project, we assumed that in the future we will really understand that all decisions are technical so we can arrive at them, let's say in our language we can make the most optimal one with the help of science and technology. So, The Venus Project (?) basically the difference, the basic difference is that anarchy says that there is an absence of a leader. But The Venus Project actually creates the environment not to have any necessity of a leader. - Yes, that is true. - Yes, very good. Anybody want to take the next question? (Stan) -Okay, I will try to do that one. "What are relevant to you the most effective ways of changing the absolute beliefs of persons in a discussion?" Well there are a lot of different ways but the best as I understood, the best way is for example a demonstration if you can take the person's idea and give an example which is relevant example for them so they can see the obsolescence of the idea. I just recently learned one I could suggest, the person asked, this is about their belief system, the person asked (a) question about evolution, the person asked if people evolved from monkeys. why there are still monkeys, which is actually a very frequent question. And the reply for that was "What do you think about domestic dogs and wolves?" Do you think that domestic dogs evolved from wolves? Yes". So this is the same thing. So if you can give examples like that, I think it would be helpful, (?) and always good to refer to Jacque's demonstration of the round Earth, which he talked about to the New York Arab community, so that's my understanding. (R Meadows) -Yes, that's great. I guess this one's for Jacque. "What was been your most favourite invention?" -Social design. -And most ambitious. Jacque, Roxanne, has Joel Noel... (there is no Noel here there's Joel and Larry) and others working with you got enough knowledge to explain things like you both do well? How did they developed? (?)While they are working for the project, what is their role? (J Fresco) -I don't force anybody into anything, it depends on the questions they ask and how well they understand them. -Actually, Joel deals with our Youtube channel, and he's the one that gives the answers for that. He really, he does pretty well. "Jacque, why did you picked Florida to move to from LA?" -Well, I left LA when the smog began, and it became very painful. And I left because it was very difficult; it was smog all over the place. And no program was designed to end that system, there were a lot of proposals but apparently the politicians payed no attention to the proposals because industry did not want to put the bill to put in electronic precipitators to get rid of the smog...so I left. Florida was clean at the time. "Did you come to Florida after you got evicted from one of you research centers that you built, because they were going to build a highway through there?" - Did that correlate at that time? - Yes, yes it did. -I didn't know that. "How are the new tapes coming along that you have recently provided by Carl(?)?" Well we got them all on the computer now. So we have to work on them for sound, that's actually a job that Joel has taken on. And we just get so much interruption with so many things happening here, that things take longer than we always want but they are coming along, we're continuously working on that. And this is for me, "Can you tell me about your own life and general life experiences before you ever came to know Jacque?" Well I hadn't...my parents moved around a lot, people asked me where I came from and I didn't know what to say, up and down the East Coast of the United States, many different states, then I was always interested in Art and worked on it a lot I spent a lot of time on it, I went to college for art, but I graduated, I went to two different colleges, and majored in Fine Arts, but when I graduated I really knew very little about drawing, and someone introduced me to Jacque's lectures and I listened to them, And I ended up going to, when I was about 26, going to his lectures and I just stayed, and starting working with Jacque and starting reading some of the books on the book list, generally was interested in what he was saying and how he drew, when I saw how he drew, that was one of my main interests, I wanted to draw like that. I worked really hard, took lessons from Jacque and he taught me how to draw technically, and how it applies to Fine Arts, and I understood that if I want to see the world that Jacque talked about I had to work at it, I had to build it, so I stayed on to do that. It meant more to me than anything I ever heard, anything that I experienced, so, I couldn't have gotten this experience anywhere else, so I used to attend Jacque's lectures at his home he used to give it three times a week; that's where the old tapes come from the seventies and eighties. That's about it. And I learned a tremendous amount from working with him and had to pick up and do a lot of things because we didn't have the finances to hire other people and we wanted things done a certain way such is the editing, or the way the buildings were built You know, I did a lot of that cement work and actually built the buildings and got a lot of the experience with that, I always thought that it was important for educating kids the way I got educated through Jacque, he first thought me how to make technical illustration which I never got in perspective in college, in art schools, and then how to make the models and I learned on his designs which made it more interesting than anything I could have gotten in school, and then how to build the buildings. So, then living in them, and understanding how you do it differently I thought was a tremendous experience and I thought that all kids should go through that. Okay so next question. "Why don't you guys run a Twitter site delivering relevant messages and words of wisdom on a daily basis?" That's a good idea, we started a Twitter site, actually Joel started it, but we take on so much here that we never kept it up, so if anybody else wants to do that based on some of the writings, I know (?)Dennis is taking on different quotes which are really nice making it in a kind of artwork on Facebook, I think it's a great idea, if anybody wants help with this get in touch with us. with the we put out, and that's a lot of materials, you can draw from the old lecture tapes or from the seventies or eighties, all the way up to our new material. "Have you watched 'Owned and operated?'" No, is that a movie? We haven't. Maybe somebody could send us a link. (Stan) -Yes, I just would like to say, some people start (?) project Twitter movement, The Venus Project Twitter Movement on Facebook so I will let them know (?) to make it more visible, but this is a very good project So they tried to tweet on a daily basis for the Venus Project. -That would be wonderful, we appreciate that. "How many hours do you sleep, Jacque? Is there a particular sleeping method, timing that you use?" No, we always feel sleep deprived. Yes... I guess that's about it. Thanks everyone for your help in answering the questions. -Yes we always appreciate that. -Yes, I think that's a great idea, having other people answer the questions as well, it's terrific. -Yes, I'm very pleased with your answers. -Yes, they were really good. We'll talk with you next week, I do have a concern I'm really sorry how the audio on the lectures skipped a bit, in the original form they don't skip. So hopefully we'll get it up on the website so it doesn't skip, we'll have to talk to Joel and to Shawn about that, maybe that's just the nature of people coming in and out of TeamSpeak, I don't know, but we'll run the second half of that lecture that we played today. Actually there's two hours of that lecture so, we will continue that, so thanks again everyone!

Video Details

Duration: 1 hour, 1 minute and 42 seconds
Year: 2012
Country: United States
Language: English
Producer: The Venus Project
Director: The Venus Project
Views: 8
Posted by: ltiofficial on Feb 18, 2016

TVP Teamspeak Q&A Seminar - Expectations of Predictability (part 1) - 2012-05-20

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