Transcript for Wafa Sultan interviewed on Dutch TV

Mrs Sultan, again, thank you very much for joining us. First of all: How did you end up

being an expert witness in this trial? How did Mr. Wilders ask you? - I really don't know

what's the reason behind it, I was asked to come and I'm more than happy to do it.

What are you going to tell the Judge tomorrow?

Whatever they ask me I'm going to answer to the best of my knowledge. - Do you know Mr...

I hear that they're accusing Mr. Wilders of hatespeech and for me it's a shame.

It's a shame not to be able to speak up, you know, it's a shame that Mr. Wilders

has to go thruogh this ordeal, you know, just because saying the truth might

hurt someone's feelings, even if it is going to save lives. That's what I'm going to say.

But you don't know why you specifically were asked? You met him before?

Not before I was chosen to be a witness.

So, you've had two meetings with Mr. Wilders, now you're meeting him...

Not private meeting, I was invited to two events where he gave speeches.

How well do you know him and do you know his...

I am very familiar with his message, I don't know much about him as, you know,

I mean personal things, but I am very familiar with his message and I greatly appreciate it.

Yea, how... What do you make of his message?

It is very good, it's very good for someone to stand up against the violent Islamic teachings

and try to protect his country and his values, his freedom, his way of life. I admire

every man who does what Mr. Wilders is doing. You need to stand up and speak against it.

What do you make of this trial against him?

It is scary. It is a very scary message, that you are threatened,

that Islam might be able to take over.

You accuse, I mean, you know, the Dutch court accuses Mr. Wilders of hatespeech

and I wonder why they don't call the Koran hate message.

When you read the Koran, do you consider it love message?

So why do you allow Muslims to teach their violent teachings to their young children,

while you don't allow people like Mr. Wilders to criticize those teachings?

This is the question.

I don't know exactly what the judge will ask you tomorrow, but Mr. Wilders is well known here

for saying that Islam is a backward culture and he has said many times in public that

as far as he's concerned, the Koran should be banned.

And people wearing headscarves should be taxed accordingly.

I 100% agree with him.

Because he knows a big deal what the Koran is about.

Once you know, you're going to take a stand the same way he did.

Because I believe you as a Dutch won't allow someone to destroy your way of life.

So, so my message to the Dutch people: Get familiar with the Islamic teachings.

Read the Koran and read the life of Muhammad.

And you need to understand that Muhammad is the role model for every Muslim man on Earth.

And why is that a bad thing?

Because, you know, because the... the way they behave against non-Muslims.

They are brainwashed to believe, indoctrinated to believe, that their mission of Earth

is to take over. And to force non-Muslims to become Muslims.

And, believe me, the Islamic values don't match with the Western values.

They're not for freedom. You have to follow strictly what Islamic sharia asks you to do.

Especially when it comes to women. I don't know if Dutch women will accept to live

their lives or to be treated the way Muslim women are treated under Islamic sharia.

They're not familiar with Islamic sharia, that's why they don't stand up against it.

But once you educate the public about it, then many more, like Wilders, will speak out.

You've said many times that you are fighting Islam. Do you see Wilders in that same group?

Yes, he is. Yes, we're not fighting Muslims, we're not against Muslims. Even Mr. Wilders

has said that many, many times: We have to distinguish between Islam and Muslims.

We're not Muslims, but we're totally against Islam.

Because it is a very hateful, political ideology.

Which doesn't match the Western laws and the Western way of life.

A large group of the Dutch population does not agree with you, does not see it that way.

What don't they understand about Islam?

Anything, they don't understand anything about Islam.

How many Islamic texts have been translated to Dutch so far? So how they know?

There are few, I don't know it the situation in Holland the same as it is in the United States,

there are few books which are sugarcoated and was distributed by the Saudis.

Those books don't have the truth about Islam. They're very sugarcoated.

Especially translations of the Koran, because in Islam, it is forbidden to translate the Koran.

If you take a look at the translation of the Koran in English,

you will see the meaning of our holy book. It is not the literal translation, it's not word for word.

And it's very much sogarcoated.

So you need to translate in very honest way

the Islamic text from its original, Arabic text, to Dutch, and have people read it

and then make their judgment.

So you're saying the Dutch in general are those who say that Islam is not a hateful religion, or

at least... yea, you say they misunderstand.

Of course they do. - They're like... - They don't understand the whole idea about Islam.

There are 800.000 Muslims living in the Netherlands.

Do you see them to the Dutch way of life?

Not every Musilm is a threat. I am sure many Muslims are very moderate.

But some are? - But some, some are dangerous.

And some are playing the al-taqiyah, the concept of al-taqiyah, which

allows Muslims to cheat, to lie, to cover their feelings in order to reach their objective.

How many percent of those, how many percent of those, I really don't know.

But we cannot consider every Muslim is a threat.

It depends how deeply he understands his religion and stick to his teachings.

But if you're saying that you just said: I don't have a problem with Muslims, I have a

problem with Islam. - Yes. - Now it seems that you are a problem with at least some Muslims.

No doubt about it. I don't want to generalize my attitude.

Of course I have problems with some Muslims.

But I don't want to say every Muslim is a threat, that's not fair.

My mother is a Muslim and she's still practising Islam.

She's the most peaceful woman on Earth.

But she's illiterate, she has never read the Koran or the life of Muhammad.

She practices Islam the way she heard her mother and grandmother talking about Islam.

So that's what I mean, I can not consider my mum as as threat.

But she doesn't know much about Islam.

I am worried about Muslims who know the exact Islamic message and get sticked to it.

That's what worryes me.

And I'm sure there are some of them who do that.

What happens to you, that you didn't follow in your mother's footsteps?

I have had very unique circumstances.

And when people ask me why we don't hear more Muslim women like you

express themselves in the same way, I believe you have to have a special or unique character

in order to be able to go against your own religion, against you own culture,

it is not easy, it has been very draining.

You know, my... after... you know...

I said whatever I said about Islam, my life would never be the same.

So I understand why Musilm women don't do it more often.

Because it's very draining and, as I said, you have to have...

You have to be equipped with special powers, special strength, to do that, and I am.

But there were also circumstances in your life... - Yes. ...that made you see like what?

What was the [...?]-ful event in you life?

You know, I am a medical doctor.

It helped me to...

evaluate my teachings under my scientific microscope.

I was born and raised as a Muslim and lived for 30 years of my life under Islamic sharia.

Then I moved to a free country. I felt, you know...

I was protected by the law and I was free enought to express my life.

Plus, my husband played a role

in...

shaping, you know, helping me, actually, to shape my thoughts about Islam.

I've heard you tell the story of your niece, who was married to...

Yes, many, many experiences, you know, many, many experiences and

It took me a book, called «The God who hates», to answer your question.

Because it didn't happen overnight.

There were many turning points of my life and

the story of my niece was one of it, but I couldn't

realize the reason behind my niece's tragedy until I went and I lived in a free society.

And what did you then realize about Islam that is so bad?

Because... my... I give you one example:

My niece was forced to marry her cousin

when she was eleven. He was over forty.

He was a very abusive man and

she didn't have the right to ask for divorce.

Her father was not able to help her.

Many times she escaped from her husband's house to her father's,

begging her dad to allow her to stay with her family and

he would say, you know, «it's shame for a Muslim woman to leave her husband's

house without his permission, go back, I will talk to him, I promise he will be better.»

Eventually, she committed suicide, leaving four children behind.

Her marriage was valid under Islamic sharia.

And that's, that's where I started to question myself.

What kind of religious law that allows a man over forty to marry a child?

At the age of eleven?

When I found out, even I knew that before, but I wasn't able to distinguish between...

I was brainwashed to the point I wasn't able to distinguish between right and wrong.

I knew that Muhammad married his second wife, Aisha, when she was nine.

And some even... texts say she was six.

Hw was over fifty.

And I didn't realize when I was living under Islamic sharia that...

that's not acceptable.

So, living in the United States has helped me to open my mind, top open my eyes, and

I started to question myself. What kind of prophet?

When he married a very young girl, nine years old, and he's... he was her grandfather's age.

So I started from there.

And eventually I have become who I am today.

But what you described just a moment ago would be illegal in the Netherlands.

You cannot marry a... someone who's underage, for example.

But some Muslims are trying to apply Islamic sharia and...

Here in the Netherlands?

I heard everywhere, everywhere in the West. There, you know, I heard that...

I was very involved with my Muslim community in the United States.

And I heard it million times that they were here

to eventually replace the American constitution with Islamic sharia.

And this is their goal, this is their mission.

It's to spread Islam and to take over.

This is the underlying foundation of Islam.

We are indoctrinated at very early age to believe in it.

To believe that we have to fight for the sake of Allah.

Some of them don't, because they are weak to do it, they don't have the mean to do it.

And once they do, they will do it.

You've said I've decided to fight Islam itself, not just extremism, wahhabism, but Islam...

Because I don't believe there is radical Islam.

I truly believe the term «radical Islam» is a Western trademark.

The West invented this term for the sake of being politically correct.

Growing up in Syria I had never heard of radical Islam, wahhabi Islam, militant Islam, political

Islam. I heard only of one Islam, the normal Islam.

And you say all Islam is bad? - No doubt about it.

And in order for you to understand what I mean by that, you need to read the Koran.

And the biggest problem is with Muhammad's life, the way he conducted his life.

At the age of 8-9, we were taught at school that Muhammad beheaded 800 Jewish men

in one night. And proudly... We read in our books that he slept, they said that he married,

but he slept with a woman, a Jewish woman, whose...

her husband, her father and her brother were killed the same night. So what kind

of message you're sending to young children when you teach them this type of teachings?

This question... I am doing what I am doing for the sake of Muslims.

I am not against Muslims.

I dream of a day that my country will become a free country, like Holland.

I don't want to see Holland, or any other Western country, become a country like Syria,

oppressive, oppressive and oppressed country, like Syria.

This is my dream.

I'm doing it for the sake of Muslims, especially Muslim women.

They are suffering for 14 hundred years.

They have never been challenged or forced to take a deep look into their teachings and

to reform these teachings. We need to do it.

You became a Youtube hit when you appeared on Al-Jazeera in '06,

and you were saying, I think that was the key thing in that speech,

that we are not, you were discussing with somebody on Huntington's book,

in a clash of civilizations. You saw another clash, what kind of clash did you see?

Between civilization and backwardness.

That's how I see it.

That's how I see it, the way Islam treats women

and treats non-Muslims, is not civilized and they need to be stopped.

For the sake of every country on Earth, they need to be stopped. This is my message.

Spreading that message has come with a personal price for you.

Of course. I am paying a very high price.

I received death threats on a daily basis.

You know, it has become a way of life.

I told you my life would never be the same.

But, you know, as I said before, I feel like I am equipped to do it.

So, the question why not, especially I am living in a free country and I am protected by the law

to say what I am saying.

Do you see yourself as a crusader?

It depends how you mean by crusader. I... I... I... I don't want, you know,

I feel like now I interact with my readers in the Arab world.

I am a well-known writer in the Arab world.

I feel like I created, believe it or not, a vacuum in the Arab world.

People now started to ask: What next?

We left Islam. What next?

They are looking for something spiritual to hold on.

I don't want to be perceived as a spiritual leader.

I don't want to be another Muhammad in the Islamic world.

I want to keep my message as secular as I could.

I'm looking at Islam through my scientific microscope as a medical doctor

and telling my people that who's about it, from my point of view.

I don't want to become a spiritual leader, but

I feel like I created a vacuum in their lives.

So my next step, in Arabic I'm saying, is to create a system of values,

because Islam lacks values, Islam lacks code of ethics.

The crisis in the Islamic world is lack

of morality. We don't have code of ethics.

But when you read the Bible, there are passages in there that people these days,

2000 years on, would consider, to put it mildly, not very nice.

Do you see Christianity as a better religion than Islam?

I don't know much about Christianity...

Well, I mean... - You mean... - America... - as an alternative?

America is a country that you... - Yes. - clearly enjoy, it's a very Christian nation.

Yea. Look: My mission is to create doubt about Islam.

My message for Muslims is to take a deep look in their teachings.

Once they left, or they reformed, let's say, even I don't believe Islam can be reformed,

but some people claim they are able to do that, let's... you know, my mission is... is...

to guide them, to take a look at their teachings,

to leave it or to reform it. The next step is their business.

To follow... I don't follow a specific religion. I do believe in God,but I don't believe in any religion.

So my... my... I'm not trying to... to convert Muslims to Christianity

and I... I... I cannot care less about what religion they're gonna have after they leave Islam.

So this is my point. I don't know if I answered your question.

Well, you say you believe in a God, but you are not religious. - No, I am not.

I don't follow any religion. I don't know much about Christianity,

I don't know much about any other religion and I don't really care to know.

But... but do you see for example parallels with America being such a great free speech nation

with Christianity and... - I have read in history

that America was based on Judaism and Christianity values,

which I really admire and appreciate.

It was based on the ten commandments, you don't see the ten commandments in Islam.

You know, there is no Koranic verse that says «don't kill».

There is three times the Koran mention «don't kill, except in a way of justice».

So, you have to ask what's the Muslim concept of justice.

Their concept of justice commands them to kill Wafa Sultan, because she's critizing Islam.

But in the ten commandments, what I know, you should... shall not kill, and that's it.

There is no justification in the ten commandments for any killing.

Sounds like you're liking Christianity better than Islam.

That's what I know, the ten commandments. Of course, I believe, you know that... that...

When people ask what I like about Christianity, it's the life of Jesus.

Because I... I am always asked: Why you're saying that Islam cannot be reformed?

Why Christians were able in the Middle ages to reform Christianity?

And my question is: They reformed themselves, not Christianity.

Because they went back to the life of Jesus.

And they were able, based on Jesus' life, to reform their behavior.

But the problem with Islam, if we go back to the life of Muhammad,

we will be in much worse situation than we are now.

We will end up with people like Osama bin Laden and his like.

Do you understand my point?

That's why I don't know much about the Bible,

but I have never heard that Jesus beheaded anyone, or killed anyone.

But when you go back to the life of Muhammad, it's full of killings,

it's something you cannot believe in.

This is a difference I am aware of

between Christianiy and Islam.

You said you are on a... Would you like a sip of water? - Oh, thank you. - Sorry about that.

You say you are on a mission. When is the mission successful? Mission accomplished?

I consider it successful from the very beginning.

Once you believe in something, and you are determined to do it, you're gonna succeed.

Eventually, we will win. - But... I have no doubt about it.

But how will success... How do you define success? What's the goal?

What is... What's... it you're trying to do?

My goal is to create a new Muslim mentality clean of hatred.

My goal is to raise the awareness

in the West about what's written in the Koran and in the life of Muhammad.

My mission is to protect my adopted country,

that I love with all my heart.

If America was taken by Muslims, where else I can go?

And be able to be who I am today?

This is... this is my mission.

My mission and my dream, as I told you before, is to see...

my mothercountry Syria a free country, like any free country in the West.

This is my message, and I can see the change coming.