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Nonviolence Interview for La Onf with Michael Nagler
Duration:
19 minutes and 29 seconds
Year: 2008
Country:
United States
Language:
English
License:
CC - Attribution Non-commercial
Genre:
None
Producer:
Metta Center for Nonviolence Education www.mettacenter.org
Views:
641
(109
embedded)
Posted by:
mettacenter on Sep 27, 2008
Six questions for Michael Nagler on how to apply the principles of nonviolence in Iraq.
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- JASON: Hello, my name is Jason Ahmadi; I'm a recent graduate of UC Berkeley
- and I'm here with Michael Nagler, talking to him about Nonviolence in Iraq.
- JASON: Hello, Michael. MICHAEL: Hello, Jason.
- JASON: Thank you so much for your introduction talk about Nonviolence in Iraq
- it was really helpful; and we have some questions here
- to get you more specific.
- So we'll just start off with the first question:
- How can we use - or how can Nonviolence be used in Iraq,
- to deal with the spreading of extremism,
- especially the use of religion as a political tool in Iraq?
- MICHAEL: Naturally, Jason, I know a lot less about the situation on the ground
- than Iraqis themselves,
- so I only want to share with you some of the general principles.
- In a way, extremism, by itself, is not a bad thing.
- It means a very intense commitment,
- and it means the ability to take a risk
- to do what you need to get done;
- I'm going to come back to that later.
- So, to take extremists, and challenge them to be nonviolent,
- is something that might very well succeed.
- Gandhi used to say:
- I can make a Satyagrahi - a nonviolent person -
- out of a violent person.
- I cannot make a nonviolent person out of a coward.
- I cannot make a nonviolent person out of someone who doesn't care
- who sits on the sidelines.
- See, if someone cares enough to be an extremist,
- you may feel that they're wrong,
- but they've got the raw material to join you.
- What you then have to do is, first of all,
- respect their extremism, even though you disagree with it.
- It's kind of tricky, you know what I mean?
- You don't push them out because they're extremists;
- You don't say "I can't talk to you."
- You don't say "The only language you understand is force,
- because you're an extremist."
- You say, "I understand the pressures that you've been up against,
- and I appreciate the reaction that you've had,
- and I respect it; but I want to help you
- to see an even more effective way to get this done."
- Now, as for the cleavage along religious lines,
- that is a very difficult issue;
- we know that it cancelled out a lot of the good work
- that Gandhi did in India.
- But I think it should be possible,
- especially by trying to worship together.
- Maybe I have no right to say this,
- but I think if peoples of various sects of Islamic worship within Iraq
- could find maybe a neutral space
- where they would worship the same God together -
- after all, everyone in the world is worshiping the same God,
- only under different names.
- If they could try to find the things that they have in common,
- instead of the things that divide them,
- so that they create their identity through this common bond of understanding,
- rather than looking for the things that make them special and different,
- I think even these very grievous, painful differences can be overcome.
- And, Jason, with everything that I'm telling you,
- there are good examples of how this has been done in other parts of the world.
- So, I can't go into details on each one right now,
- we haven't enough time; but with a little research,
- you could find people who have done things
- that are at least as difficult.
- JASON: Great! Well, the next one's a little more of a serious question:
- How can we stop - or deal with - revenge killings?
- MICHAEL: Wow.
- Well, here I'm thinking
- of very heart-rending examples that have happened,
- and I'm going to mention two areas:
- where individuals have done it,
- and one area where it's been done by the government.
- The individual areas are:
- in this country, the United States,
- we still have the death penalty.
- And of course, that's one of the things that
- we here at the Metta Center are working against -
- is to have the death penalty not be part of the judicial system.
- But there is a group in the United States,
- called "Families of Murder Victims Against the Death Penalty."
- So these are people who have had
- their son, or their husband, or their father has been murdered,
- and instead of saying "Hey, we want revenge,"
- they say "It will not help me
- to get closure emotionally,
- it will not help the killer understand anything,
- it will not help society to go and kill that person."
- I have a very good friend here in California,
- his name is Azim Khamisa,
- whose son was murdered in a gang-related act.
- He went and - He practiced meditation 5 times a day for months
- to get over the grief and anger;
- and when he felt he had it under control,
- he went and found the guardian of the 14-year-old boy
- who killed his son, and they started an organization together
- to keep other children from joining gangs.
- So, one approach would be to locate, identify individuals
- who have a reason for revenge,
- but have been so mature and so brave
- that they've said "Revenge is not our way."
- Another place this has been done, of course,
- is in the conflict in Palestine.
- There are groups both in Palestine and in the United States
- of Israelis who have lost family members,
- and Palestinians who have lost family members;
- and they've come together -
- and I could tell you some very, very moving stories
- about what they've overcome, and what they've done together.
- So you can start off that way at a very small level
- And then, as I think we mentioned in our other discussion, Jason,
- there are ways that the state can create institutions for reconciliation;
- they're what we call "Post-Conflict Peace-Building."
- JASON: Great, that's great.
- So, I guess my next question is kind of similar, but
- How can we overcome the internal clashes going on in cities -
- especially the ones that started after the Samara bombing -
- between Sunni and Shia?
- MICHAEL: Yeah. Uh, I think the general idea is
- to first be strong in yourself;
- I know that there are some groups in Al Mesalla
- that have both Sunni and Shia working together.
- My own spiritual teacher came from a Hindu family,
- He was teaching in central India
- his best friend, Naimudin, was a Muslim;
- they used to appear everywhere in public.
- This requires courage.
- There are - when people get very angry and full of hate,
- they think that people who want to make peace,
- who want to bring groups together, are the enemy,
- and often, their violence turns against those very groups.
- So, I'm not saying this is going to be easy,
- but when individuals from the two groups get together,
- and they can form some interest, gather a few others,
- then you can start bringing people together for discussions
- and then, as I mentioned in our other talk,
- if they had a common project that they were working on,
- it's a very powerful way to bring people together.
- I'm not saying that any of this is easy, but
- you know, if we do nothing, it won't be easy either.
- JASON: Okay. So, my next question has to do with the
- IDP, or Internally Displaced People.
- So the question is about
- what to do with over 200,000 people
- who have lost their homes and are now displaced in Iraq.
- Well, my very good friend Mubarak Awad-
- and I know that some of the people in LaOnf know him very well -
- when he was doing Obstructive Program
- against the Israelis in certain villages,
- he was also doing Constructive Program among the Palestinian communities;
- and one of the main things that he did was to bring families together.
- And I think that, even though LaOnf has been organizing very well,
- it has to do this slowly, on a small scale - start on a small scale.
- Once it gets known that you have this capacity,
- to resettle IDP's, to do anything for them,
- you're going to be mobbed with requests.
- So try to build up an infrastructure where you can do this.
- I want to emphasize this:
- that the more you can do to help rebuild Iraqi society yourself,
- not only will you have a better future for Iraq,
- but in case there is a residual presence
- trying to exploit the weakness of the country, wherever it is,
- you'll be in a much better position to protect yourself against that.
- JASON: So, another question I have is:
- How can we fight for recognition from the current Iraqi government
- for an independent civil society here in Iraq?
- MICHAEL: At this point it becomes a kind of advantage
- that the government of Iraq is not yet well-developed.
- It's not very strong.
- Now, they're having a lot of trouble from militias,
- and from armed groups.
- And that trouble is going to get much, much worse,
- if and when - Inshallah -
- we have a rapid draw-down of American forces.
- Now, Mahatma Gandhi had a scheme in India, for exactly this problem,
- and I think it worked pretty well over there
- and I think it could work very well in Iraq;
- and that is - he called it "Shanti Sena",
- which means "Army of Peace".
- So, when you're training people in nonviolence,
- you could also be organizing them into groups
- that would work in a particular neighborhood,
- which would get the trust of the people in that neighborhood,
- and you'd be recognized as people of peace.
- So that even when you're attacked, you will not fight back.
- when others are being attacked,
- you will go and interpose yourself to protect them.
- it requires a lot of courage; it's going to require sacrifice,
- and it's going to require risk -
- but, to repeat, unless we do these things, the future will be much worse,
- and we'll suffer much more.
- So, if you had these Shanti Senas,
- you would be extremely useful to the government.
- We've even had examples of that at the campus of the University of California.
- There is conflict on that campus, as I think you may be aware, yes?
- It's not exactly as serious, in terms of life and death,
- but in many cases, the University was not able to handle that conflict,
- despite the skill of Victoria Harrison (the chief of police) and some of those other people.
- So one of our friends, Matthew Taylor,
- started a mediation group,
- where he can bring conflicting parties together.
- Immediately, he became very useful for the campus.
- So, if you had these Shanti Senas,
- and they had the trust of people -
- and I believe that there are institutions for this throughout Islamic societies.
- of trusted individuals - counsels -
- who can adjudicate cases, who can act as judges,
- who can mediate, and if necessary, keep the peace
- by interposing themselves,
- I think you'd have a much quicker and more rapid path
- to introduce the idea of nonviolence to the government.
- Now, what's happened in Western Europe
- is that groups that have started civil society nonviolent mechanisms
- of one kind or another; civilian-based defense,
- they have done that alongside of military defense.
- So they have not said to the government:
- "Give up all your weapons, we'll protect you" -
- though, as a matter of fact, I think it would work.
- But the government would not believe them. So they would say:
- Okay, let us have some resources, let us do some training,
- give us some problems to work on, and just watch what we do.
- And I think that is slowly starting to spread.
- We have a very militaristic culture in the West -
- otherwise, it would spread very quickly;
- but I think that would be a useful model for Islam, also.
- And then there's some of the great saints of Islam:
- there's a woman saint from what is now Tunisia,
- I believe, from the 15th century,
- went and stood between two armies
- and prevented them from having a war;
- there are great traditions within Islam
- for even one individual doing this.
- but I think that a trained group,
- coming to the attention of the government,
- and giving them an opportunity to make a transition,
- I think that that's one good way to do it.
- JASON: Well, I just wanted to say thank you so much
- for all your words and all your knowledge about nonviolence,
- and, like you said before, we aren't in Iraq, but
- I'm sure everybody who watches this can hopefully
- use it with your experiences to more effectively struggle
- and improve lives in Iraq.
- But I want to end with one last question:
- What are the strengths and weaknesses of the situation in Iraq
- for offering nonviolence?
- MICHAEL: Ah, yes. Whenever you want to have a nonviolent program,
- whether it's short-term or long-term,
- you do have to analyze the situation that you're in,
- and you have to know what the strengths and the weaknesses are.
- So, interestingly enough, one of these strengths
- is the extremism that we started talking about earlier.
- If people are willing to get in a car full of explosives
- and drive into a crowd and blow themselves up,
- that requires a kind of courage.
- Now, I'm not in favor of that mechanism;
- I think the strategy is totally wrong - it makes things worse -
- But you have the raw material,
- out of which you can make a nonviolent person.
- See, if I go to a group of people and I say,
- "I want you to risk your lives nonviolently,"
- most of them will say, "I like my life -
- I'm afraid, I don't want to risk losing it."
- I can try to convince them that nonviolence is safer than violence,
- but still there will be a lot of fear.
- But if you have someone who says,
- "I'm going to lay down my life for this cause,"
- You go to them and you say, "Congratulations!
- That's wonderful, that's just what we need,
- but I'm going to show you a better way to use your life."
- So suicide bombers, believe it or not,
- are a great strength, a great advantage in Iraq.
- Again, so you could turn them into those Shanti Sena groups
- that we were talking about before.
- And now, it's also good to note that
- when there have been societies that were absolutely torn apart by violence,
- Usually, they don't destroy themselves.
- Usually, something happens where
- the people wake up, all together.
- We don't know how this happens.
- But they wake up and they say, "Wait a minute, this is ridiculous;
- we're killing each other; why don't we just stop?
- So today, one of the groups that we think of as
- the most peaceful in the world
- is the Scandinavian countries: Norway, Sweden, Denmark,
- wherever you go in the world, wherever there's peacemaking, they're there!
- They have the most resources, the most courage, they're wonderful.
- But until the year 1805,
- they were bloodthirsty Vikings, they were killing each other!
- And they just decided one day, "The heck with it,
- this is silly, it doesn't work! There are other examples, too,
- in New Zealand, in the Dominican Republic,
- and I feel that the Iraqi people are really finished with the violence.
- They know that it's destroying them,
- and they do not want it anymore,
- it doesn't fit their image anymore of what it means to be an Iraqi,
- or an Islamic person, a good Muslim.
- And if you remember, this is what happened in the 1980's
- with the Palestinians:
- They used violence, and used violence, and used violence,
- and finally, they said, "Look, this isn't working, it's not getting us anywhere,"
- and then Mubarak was able to go in
- and start the center for nonviolence in RamAllah.
- So I have a feeling that the dynamics -
- even though it doesn't look very good on the surface,
- and I'm not saying there isn't going to be more killing -
- there could be a spasm of horrible killing -
- But I think it's reaching a point where the Iraqi people want to stop.
- And then, if Al Mesalla is there with an alternative,
- it could be very, very powerful.
- So that, again, is a strength. And now, in terms of a weakness -
- I wouldn't exactly call it a weakness -
- but the need, the need is for tremendous courage and tremendous faith.
- But, I think everybody needs that, in whatever situation you're in.
- I know sometimes, even the lack of communication technologies
- have made it difficult for people to organize in Iraq,
- as they have been in the West Bank, for example, in Palestine.
- It's hard to have a demonstration when you can't even call people
- and say "Come to the demonstration."
- But I wouldn't exaggerate that,
- and I'm impressed with the way that LaOnf has been able to
- start getting organized already.
- So, I wish the Iraqi people the best success from the bottom of my heart,
- and if there's anything that we at the Metta Center can do
- to help you, please know that we will be here for you.
- Thank you very much.


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