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David Heinemeier Hansson at Startup School 08
Duration:
31 minutes and 53 seconds
Year: 2008
Country:
United States
Language:
English
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None
Producer:
Startup School 08
Director:
Julian Frumar
Views:
446
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embedded)
Posted by:
ento on Jul 13, 2009
David Heinemeier Hansson, creator of the Ruby on Rails framework and Partner at 37Signals gives insight into creating a profitable startup company. http://www.omnisio.com/startupschool08/david-heinemeier-hansson-at-startup-school-08
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- Hi everyone, I'm David Heinemeier Hansson.
- I work for 37signals.
- I'm also the creator of
- a web framework called Ruby on Rails.
- I'm not gonna talk about that at all today.
- So sorry about that.
- What I'm gonna talk about though a little bit is
- how lonely I feel up here.
- So I work for 37signals.
- We're not looking for VC funding,
- we're not hiring, we're profitable.
- It feels kinda weird to be
- in a collection of young smart people,
- and feels a little bit lonely in that sense.
- Most of the talks this morning
- and most of the questions were
- how do I pitch my VC, how do I this,
- how do I do the other thing that doesn't really
- perhaps relate directly to
- hey, how do I build a business
- that's actually viable,
- short of Google, deciding to
- opening its purse, picking me up?
- I think there is too little talk
- among startups, about just making money.
- on their own.
- So, this is going to be a talk
- on the secret of making money online.
- But actually, I thought I'd revise that a little bit
- because at 37signals, we kind of been
- accused a little bit of being arrogant;
- there's one way, our way or the highway.
- So, to kind of preempt that,
- it's a secret, to making money online.
- There's probably other secrets out there too.
- Now I'm going to present the one
- we've been thinking about.
- This is the classic conundrum.
- The slashdot question.
- You have a great application,
- and then something magical happens,
- and you have profit.
- So, we've been studying this conundrum
- for some time at 37signals.
- We've been talking to a lot of people,
- we've been doing our research,
- we've been doing experiments,
- testing things out, what would work and what wouldn't.
- We found out that having a price
- is really cool for getting profits.
- I mean you have customers,
- they pay you money
- for the product or service
- and you get profit!
- I mean it's such a weird notion
- it's almost too simple to work.
- But I've heard that over time,
- hundreds of years actually,
- that has been how most businesses
- have made their money.
- But somehow I think that notion got lost
- in the web world.
- And the funny thing is
- we've played this game before.
- We've played it back in 2000,
- it was all about the eyeballs,
- it was all about the VC,
- getting bought out, going IPO, whatever.
- It didn't really work then.
- and now we are playing another round
- because there's money ready again to be
- invested, money ready to buy out
- social media, networking things.
- And I mean it's great!
- I'm truely happy for the people
- who win that lottery.
- I mean just like I would congratulate
- anybody else winning that lottery.
- But I think there is a simpler way.
- I think there's a simpler way of building
- sustainable businesses
- that is being neglected
- in this community, which is to have a price.
- And the cool thing about having a price is
- there are so many different ways to have it.
- It's not like there's only one approach to it.
- At 37signals, we have a really
- simple dumb idea,
- which is just get people to sign up
- for a product, they pay us every month,
- if they continue to like the product,
- they continue to pay us money.
- That works for us.
- We've been more than doubling
- our revenues for the past
- many years we've been doing this.
- Many, which is a funny thing in the startup world.
- For us, it's like four or five.
- But it still worked out to be
- a multi-million-dollar business.
- And we're pretty happy with that.
- There's a lot of other people doing
- similar things.
- Just in different approaches to it.
- So they might not have a subscription
- service you pay every time or every month.
- You might do something like CampaignMonitor
- which is an awesome service for
- sending out email, newletters, tracking them,
- who's clicking on what and reaching what.
- They have this plan of just charging
- a cent per recipient.
- Again, a very, very simple idea.
- You're using a service, you like it,
- it's growing your business, and you pay
- to use it. They make money that way.
- They're actually a cool group down in Australia,
- they're going surfing
- next week. And I don't even think
- they've got any huge wave to have to catch.
- They're just happy making money.
- So,
- you can also just do the traditional
- time tested way of just selling your software.
- FogBugz has kind of two ways of doing it.
- You can either get it on-demand,
- which is a new thing for them,
- or you can just buy the piece of software.
- FogBugz sells you a package for a price,
- $199, you buy it, you install it on
- your server and you're presumably happy.
- And FogBugz gets money directly from that customer.
- You can also combine these things.
- I love this service: FaxItNice.
- FaxItNice is a great way of
- routing around the fact that
- a huge percentage of
- the businesses in the U.S.
- still works over faxes.
- And faxes are really annoying.
- But here, you wrap it up into a nice web service.
- You send them a single fax for $5,
- You can sign up for retainer type scenario,
- you pay $20, which is what I do,
- and then you pay a little bit
- every time you send, or you can
- sign up for a subscription basis.
- You can send and receive
- faxes and you pay on a monthly basis for that.
- The really cool thing about all of this is
- you don't need to be a fucking genius
- to make any of this work.
- It's not rocket surgery.
- I mean it's really just that simple, 3 step idea.
- You have a great application,
- you ask money for it,
- if people like it they'll pay, and you profit.
- But here's the kicker.
- It's still hard.
- Just because you slap a price on something,
- doesn't mean you'll have a successful business.
- Most businesses fail.
- I think this is where the problem creeps in.
- So, if most businesses fail anyway,
- why shouldn't I go to try to be the next
- Facebook, MySpace or YouTube and
- get out for a billion dollars, right?
- Like my good man 50 cent,
- get a billion or die trying.
- Now, I don't think that logic is
- very good actually.
- The reason I don't think the logic is very good is
- because the odds are not created equal.
- The odds of you, in here, making the next
- Facebook, or YouTube or MySpace,
- ah...tiny.
- The odds of you just creating a product
- that a few people will like
- and pay you money for, not that shabby.
- Still hard, but not as hard as trying to be
- a billion dollar company.
- So, here's some odds.
- If you're building this simple company
- just trying to sustain a few people,
- what are the odds of that being a success?
- 1 to 5, 1 to 10? I don't know.
- But the odds of you building that next
- Facebook or MySpace, probably not 1 to 10.
- I mean, if it was, I would probably
- not be giving this speech.
- I'd be trying to build the next Facebook.
- The odds are lot, lot worse than that.
- But people get into this notion
- that it's really this easy.
- We hear these stories all the time.
- The Facebooks, the MySpaces and the YouTubes,
- are broadcasted again, and again, and again.
- It's kind of like reverse terror alerts.
- So the probability of something like this
- happening, like the probability of
- you being crashed in a plane,
- tiny.
- But the fear you have of it, or the
- desire you have to be the next Facebook,
- huge because it's been broadcasted over and over again.
- You've been brainwashed.
- If you look at these odds,
- and you then look at the probability
- and the outcome you can get for it,
- you compare them.
- So let's take a business
- where you have a 1 to 10 chance
- of making a million dollars.
- There used to be once upon a time when
- a million dollars was a lot of money.
- I still think a million dollars is a lot of money.
- But all these VCs are talking about is
- billion dollar companies,
- or three hundred million dollar companies.
- I think you can be pretty happy with
- just a million dollars. Most people would be.
- And I think we lose sight of that
- because we get this image pumped up
- of the billion dollar company.
- Now, to do a naive comparison,
- these should actually be equal.
- A 1 to 10 chance of making a million dollars
- should be roughly the same as
- 1 to 10,000 chance to make a billion dollars.
- If you didn't care about the first jump.
- I think that's what people misses.
- The difference between having
- say a million dollars and a billion dollars
- is a lot smaller than the difference between
- having negative ten thousand dollars in your
- banking account and having a million dollars.
- So I do encourage a lot more people to take
- the better odds at the smaller reward and
- then perhaps worry about the billion dollars next time.
- Now,
- how do you go about getting that million dollars?
- It sounds, I'm even making that sound kinda easy.
- And, in some ways, it's not as hard as you think.
- It's because most people don't look at
- the simple facts of these things.
- So let's take the idea of a subscription service.
- A subscription service that has 2,000 customers,
- at $40 a month over 12 months,
- make a million dollars a year.
- That's not bad.
- 2,000 customers out of
- the entire potential customers out there,
- that's not a whole lot of customers.
- It's not really that hard.
- Still hard, but it's really not the same thing as
- trying to build that next one-in-a-year thing,
- Facebook or MySpace or whatever.
- It's a lot simpler, and a lot more tried and true.
- Dig a little bit further into those numbers.
- What do I need to get those 2,000 customers?
- Well, if you look at the numbers like conversion rates,
- let's say you have a run-of-the-mill subscription service
- and you somehow manage to make it
- good enough that 5% of the people who sign up
- for your service end up paying you money.
- You need to have 40,000 signups
- to keep 2,000 customers.
- That's 110 signups a day.
- That's still kind of hard to get,
- but it's really not that hard.
- And I think people are underestimating
- trying to aim for this.
- These numbers even add up to a million dollars.
- Most people would be happy making even
- a fifth of that. If you take it down one more level,
- to make 200,000 dollars a year
- you need just 400 customers at $40.
- Then marketing issues, you can attack.
- If you're trying to get 400 customers,
- 2,000 or even 10,000, that can be tiny.
- You don't have to care about these big waves.
- You don't have to care about discovering the next great thing.
- You just have to solve a problem
- a little bit better than the other guys.
- Just like if you are opening a restaurant.
- You're opening your restaurant, you're doing
- Italian food, it doesn't have to be
- the best freaking Italian food in the world.
- It just have to be convenient for the people
- around you. And you can make a pretty
- good business out of that. I think there's
- too few people trying to make just a
- nice Italian restaurant in the web space.
- Now, how do you go about
- finding these customers then?
- Because, 2,000 people paying you money
- is still 2,000 people.
- That's a lot of people.
- Well, we tried a few different ways.
- And I think that's also again where
- it goes a little bit off-track.
- So Backpack is an application
- we have at 37signals.
- It started out being, well, we did Basecamp first
- for businesses and organizers of projects.
- "Let's do something for the consumer."
- So we did this application for the consumer
- organizing their loose-ends, blah blah blah.
- Well, really hard.
- Because getting the consumer to
- pay you money for something,
- that's pretty hard.
- We even have a plan starting at $5 a month.
- And consumers are really fleety thing.
- They'll pay just $5 a month one month
- and then decide they don't need it
- any more, they'll turn it off.
- And it's really hard actually
- to establish a business here.
- So I'd advise if you are trying to
- follow this model of
- just selling services for money,
- going to the consumer
- shouldn't be the obvious choice.
- There's a lot easier way to go about this.
- We kind of realized this over a few years of
- running Backpack and other apps.
- We relaunched Backpacks
- about 2 months ago
- after being out for 2 years almost.
- And we aimed it towards
- the businesses instead.
- In 2 months, it more than doubled
- the revenue of what it had before.
- By just adding a few more
- sustainable customers,
- willing to pay us more than $5 a month
- to use the service.
- This is really something we've found that
- business is the market we're going to
- focus on: not the tiny enterprises
- but not the consumer either.
- We call this the Fortune 5 million.
- There's a ton of companies out there
- in the Fortune 5 million
- who have a lot of problems
- which are not currently being addressed.
- Either because people are too busy
- trying to figure out how they can
- get everybody to watch a funny video
- on the internet next week, or
- about doing that enterprise play where
- your customers are paying you
- hundreds of thousands of dollars a month.
- There's a huge untapped market here
- in the Fortune 5 million.
- Now,
- kind of the problem with all of this
- and the kind of the problem with attacking the Fortune 5 million,
- is this notion that if you're doing so
- you're making a lifestyle business.
- You're making a small mom-and-pop store,
- and just two old folks behind the counter
- counting the pennies and that's kind of the life.
- And people look at you, "Yeah, that's nice,
- you have a few customers,
- that's good for you."
- And I think that's
- in the great words of Eric Cartman,
- that's bullcrap.
- I mean, it's really not that notion
- that either you're going to be this
- sad mom-and-pop store,
- counting the pennies, or
- you're going to be this billion dollar company.
- There's a lot of room in-between,
- of just enjoying life.
- I'm glad that Paul brought up
- the example of craigslist.
- Because I think craigslist is actually
- in that definition of lifestyle businesses,
- fits it very very well.
- Being able to run your own business
- without taking VC money,
- without taking all of these thing that
- put you under a certain trajectory
- can be really, really satisfying.
- Calling your own shots,
- running at your own pace, that's pretty great.
- Once you get to that point,
- financials are fine,
- if you're making a million dollars a year
- you're doing pretty alright.
- You're doing better than most people out there.
- And once you get that aspect of your life taken
- care of, there's a whole lot of other things
- that start mattering a ton more,
- like not being in freaking meetings all day.
- Like not being
- told what to do by other people.
- Being able to set your own pace,
- calling your own shots is immensely
- powerful motivator for just enjoying your life.
- Craig Newmark has a great quote in this
- in an article I read. It says
- "We both know some people who own
- more than a million dollars
- and they don't seem any happier."
- I think that's exactly how the money game is.
- Once you reach a certain point,
- everything beyond that is
- really just not that important.
- And you kind of pick different ways to
- get there. If you're going for
- that billion dollar slot,
- you're giving up a ton of things that
- I don't think most people are considering.
- He has another great quote,
- "Finding a good cause is
- incredibly hard and time cosuming."
- So if you can find a good cause in just
- a business making a million dollars a year
- that you enjoy actually you're working on,
- why would you want to give that up?
- What's this overzealous
- intent of flipping your business?
- Where are all the people saying
- "I just want to build a business"
- and enjoy it over the next 20 years?
- Most of the startup people I'm talking to
- seem so narrowly focused on
- "We gotta pump it up and then
- we gotta sell out and then
- we'll live the good life."
- I'm not so sure that life that awaits you
- after selling your startup is the good life.
- I've talked to more than a fair share of
- company founders who've done exactly that
- I have one particularly sorry tale of a guy
- who was doing technology. I was talking
- to him about his laptop. He were saying
- "Yeah, I'm probably gonna get a PC
- next time, because it runs Outlook real good
- and all I do these days anyway is
- schedule meetings."
- "What? Are you willing to trade being
- an active developer who's passionate about
- what you're doing, for a little bit of moolah
- to get into that hell hole?
- I don't think so."
- The great thing about this is the notion
- that we have these big hits, we have to
- YouTube, the guys catching those big waves,
- it reminds me of the movie industry.
- This is not it. Business, in general, is not like
- the movie industry. There's no need to
- dominate the box office.
- There can be lots of winners.
- Just like there's lots of small Italian
- restaurants out there doing pretty great even
- though there's lots of Italian restaurants.
- There can be tons of companies out there,
- who are just solving small simple problems.
- They might have 2,000 customers while
- others have 10,000 customers. And in any
- case, most of the great companies that
- have been built over time,
- started out with that. They started out with
- the 200 companies.
- The exceptions are the Facebooks of
- spending 2 years and being worth
- 15 billion dollars on paper.
- Don't use that as your role model.
- But then you have, of course, Sequoia asking
- "But where's the network effect?"
- "How are you going to be viral?"
- "Are you going to infect the entire population?"
- Well, forget viral.
- Forget this notion of this automatic
- viral thing that will infect and spread.
- You know what's viral?
- Shoes. Shoes are viral.
- When you buy them from Zappos,
- at 10 o'clock in the evening,
- you get an email 15 minutes later saying,
- "You're such a swell customers
- we're going to put you on
- expedited delivery,
- you can have it tomorrow morning."
- And getting that box tomorrow morning,
- and opening the packet saying "Hey,
- that's the pack of PUMAs I just ordered
- last night. Just how many hours ago?"
- In other words, it's just great service.
- Just a great business. It doesn't have to be
- this ingenious idea. Often this simplest
- ideas in the world, like treating your
- customers nicely while still asking
- for money for what you do, can work.
- And you can build great businesses like that.
- So,
- How do you get started doing that?
- Well, I think people are taking it
- totally lopsided.
- A lot of startup companies think,
- "Gee, how can I ram out the gates
- I have so little time. This is this
- magical market moment if I don't launch
- within 3 month we're gonna be toast!"
- Zappos are selling fucking shoes.
- People were selling shoes before that.
- And yet somehow, they're
- great business today.
- Because they're just selling shoes
- better than the other guys.
- You can do that.
- So, how do we get started.
- Basecamp was the first product
- we built at 37signals.
- And we developed it with a team of
- 3 people who were doing other stuff.
- I was attending college, doing some
- consulting on the side,
- 37 signals was a design business
- having clients on the side.
- So we didn't have a whole lot of time to do it.
- It was a side-business.
- A side-business is really not that bad.
- Having a limited amount of time every day
- to work on something, or even just having
- a few days a week to work on something,
- really focuses your energy.
- I was actually doing contracting
- with 37signals at the time.
- I had 10 hours per week
- to develop Basecamp.
- Not 10 hours per day, 10 hours per week.
- That was the bill I would send to 37signals.
- When you have 10 hours per week,
- those really matter. You can't
- screw around with 10 hours.
- Then nothing gets done that week.
- Having less time is really a huge benefit
- to most people. Because if you have
- all the time in the world, you're probably
- going to yank it all up anyway and
- it's not going to
- be really, well yank it up in the business sense of the word..
- You're going to spend your time or
- waste your time on frivolous features,
- that you don't need anyway.
- Another thing that's interesting about the whole Basecamp story.
- We grew Basecamp for a year before
- it was big enough for us to say
- we don't need to do consulting anymore.
- People are in too much of a hurry.
- You don't really need to build that
- huge company overnight.
- Most companies are not built overnight.
- Like that statistics of 7 years before
- M&A happens. I think even
- that's even short. I think even most businesses
- take longer to become great businesses.
- So don't be in such a freaking hurry.
- Another thing, of course, is just
- I have one technical bit in here.
- We ran on a single server for the entire
- first year. The great thing when you're
- charging money for what you do, is that
- scaling problems rule.
- Because scaling problems mean that you
- have more people paying you, and then
- dealing with outage issues, not a big deal.
- If you can, for example,
- get 500 customers per server,
- you're having 500 people paying you
- $40 a month, $125,000 a month.
- Do you care what that server costs?
- It can be the most expensive in the world
- and it wouldn't matter.
- Now, finally,
- take it easy. This whole startup thing,
- this whole rush thing, you're thinking about it
- as I'm gonna put in all this work right now
- and then I can just coast away from there.
- It's never gonna get less work.
- The amount of work within the beginning,
- in some ways it's gonna get more work.
- So if you set up your practices right now,
- of working 14 hours a day, 7 days a week,
- you're just going to be stuck in that
- freaking treadmill for the
- rest of your time on this.
- The patterns you set, the practices you
- choose to adopt when you're a startup,
- will stick with you.
- Finally, if you try this,
- actually build a service or product and
- charge money for it and it doesn't work,
- here's the awesome news:
- you can just blame it on us,
- and save your ego like that.
- This is a foolproof plan.
- You can always get TechCrunch to write up
- that 37signals drove you to the dead pool
- for charging money for your stuff.
- Thank you very much.
- We have time for a few questions.
- - David, you talked about opening Italian restaurants,
- - keeping things simple. What happened with Ruby on Rails?
- - What created the innovation?
- - Ruby on Rails is awesome, I love it,
- - I'm just wondering that you talked to us
- - about keeping your aims small.
- - But I think the reason why you're here
- - is because of really the great achievement.
- - So where does great achievement come in,
- - according to this formula you describe?
- I think it just comes down to just
- trying to solve simple problems.
- Ruby on Rails is my attempt at just solving
- a simple problem which is I want to enjoy
- what I work with. And to continue
- the evolution of Ruby on Rails, is picking up
- tons of these small atomizations.
- One of these simple problems. Ruby on Rails
- is really a small simple solution.
- The first version was a 1,000 lines of code,
- created entirely by me while working on Basecamp.
- It wasn't a huge mammoth project.
- I wasn't trying to get VC funding for it or
- hire 20 people doing any of these other
- interesting things that you can do for that.
- And even today, we have,
- for the Ruby on Rails project, we have
- tons of VCs coming up saying
- "Hey, do you want to make Rails Inc.?
- I have a few million dollars I want to invest."
- "No thanks, really." I think some things
- just work in the current conditions
- as they are and Ruby on Rails works for me
- because I actually have to use it everyday
- to build something real.
- It's not the day job I have. It wouldn't
- work like that. I think having a day job
- as a framework designer is probably
- the worst thing you could ever do.
- I don't think that's how good innovation comes.
- I think good innovation comes from just
- solving simple problems that you're
- intimately involved with.
- So that's actually one piece of VC advice
- I heard before, solving your own problems,
- great advice. Makes it the easiest way
- to get someone just realize you're not unique.
- If you as a company have a problem,
- you'll probably find 2,000 other people
- at the same problem willing to pay you for it.
- - Can I ask you one follow-up question?
- - In light of what you talked about,
- - what would you have done differently what you did before?
- With the company in general?
- - Yeah, in terms of Basecamp and in terms of Ruby on Rails
- - what do you feel like you put in too much time or effort in,
- - what, based on what you have told us about,
- - would you have done differently?
- Sure. This is where I would need a moment
- to prepare so that the answer doesn't sound
- as arrogant as it is; I wouldn't do very much
- differently. I'm pretty happy with how
- things turned out, I'm pretty happy with the process in general,
- I'm pretty happy that we didn't listen to
- people telling us "Hey you just give your
- product away for free. So many more people will
- like it and use it."
- - From your experience, with what you call
- - the Fortune 5 million, what kinds of businesses
- - would you consider in the sweet spot
- - of the Fortune 5 million and what kinds of
- - businesses would be outside of that?
- Sure. So I think that's a great question.
- What are the businesses that fit well into Fortune 5 million,
- fit well as customers for these kind of businesses?
- I think that when other bigger companies
- talk about small to medium sized companies
- they usually talk about 500 to 1,000 people.
- That's not small to medium size to me.
- That's freaking huge.
- That kind of company we're trying to reach
- is 3 people.
- 5 people.
- A guy doing something in his spare time.
- There's always going to be more of those
- kinds of businesses out there,
- than the huge 500+ companies out there.
- And these people are just looking for
- simple solutions. They don't care about the
- legitimacy bullcrap. They don't care about
- if you've got VC funding or what.
- They just want their problems solved.
- So if you're putting a great application out there
- just solving a sliver of their problems
- for reasonable price, they're just going to
- look at the value of that and say
- "OK, I'll do that. I'll buy this."
- Which means that you can get rid of
- all the other stuff that you normally have to
- worry about if you have to sell into
- Fortune 500 where you really have to
- worry about the red tape and sales people
- golf trips and the strippers and the states
- and the spends accounts and all that crap
- that goes along with that way.
- - So it sounds like you're saying there's no business
- - too small to be in the Fortune 500 million.
- Completely. There's way more businesses
- at the low end than there is at the top end.
- And you're going to be much happier for it.
- When you're dealing and servicing people
- who're paying you $29 a month,
- $49 a month, you're not beholden to
- any one customer.
- If you have a customer who's paying you
- a quarter of a million dollars a month,
- if they call you up you better answer,
- and you better do exactly what they say
- if you want to keep that account.
- It's not the same thing on the low end.
- You can innovate on behalf of a larger area of customers.
- And I think you're going to be much, much happier for it.
- - I got a fairly general question.
- - Being a software developer I'm sure
- - a lot of people can relate to this.
- - One of the problems I find is,
- - being in front of my computer 10-14 hours a day,
- - I'm supposed to be working on writing code.
- - But I find that I spend a lot of time
- - getting distracted to surf on the web,
- - trying to keep up with Rails.
- - Did you have any similar problems?
- - What advice can you give to developers
- - to keep on track, what motivated you
- - to really crank out a product?
- First, have you thought of getting a parent filter?
- I think they're really good to be working with.
- Second, I think the problem is
- you're trying to work 14 hours a day.
- Who the hell gets anything productive done
- for 14 hours a day. Try working
- 5 hours a day. If you have only 5 hours
- a day to spend on something,
- you'll focus your time a lot better.
- We've just gone down to 4 day work weeks.
- We're trying to work just 8 hours a day.
- The amount of productive time I get out of that,
- what, 2 hours, 3 hours? I think people
- are just not wiling to accept the fact that
- you can't, in a creative, endeavorous,
- programming work for 14 hours a day.
- It's ridiculous. If you can just get 3 hours,
- 3 great hours per day,
- you'd get a ton more done.
- - Thank you.
- Alright, thanks very much.


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